In this episode Lindsay Martin interviews host patience kamau in an effort to understand the behind the scenes development of this podcast, the motivations for its creation and the preparation that goes into each episode. 

Lindsay Martin is associate director of Development for CJP. 

Guest

patience kamau

patience kamau’s passion is for the earth’s “wild” creatures. She is a peacebuilder-conservationist who at heart, sees her role as a conciliatory one between humans and our global environment’s complex ecosystems. Along with others who feel and think similarly, she seeks to continually step into the flashpoint and convince fellow humans that, though we now contextually exist in a free market economic system based on exultations of short-term growth and endless profits, a blind pursuit of interest maximization with little thought to environmental impact only serves to undermine our species’ long-term survival.

Transcript

Theme music:

[Theme music begins and fades to background]

Lindsay:

Hello everybody, and welcome back to Peacebuilder, a conflict transformation podcast by the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding. My name is Lindsay Martin. I’m the Associate Director of Development for CJP, and today we are flipping the script. Our guest this episode is patience kamau, your regular host. I’m very excited to talk with her.

But before we begin, we’d like to remind you to plan to attend our virtual 25 plus one anniversary celebrations later this week on June 4, 5, and 6. For details on our lineup of speakers and to register go to. We hope you can join us.

Theme music:

[Theme music fades back in and plays till end]

Lindsay:

Welcome to this interview with peacebuilder podcast host patience kamau. My name is Lindsay Martin. I am currently the Associate Director of Development at the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding at 91����Ƶ. And I have been here since 2015 in this role.Thrilled to call patience my colleague and to spend the next hour with you, patience….

patience:

Thank you.

Lindsay:

…talking and sharing a little bit of what you’ve been up to with this wonderful podcast.

patience:

Wonderful.

Lindsay:

Welcome to everyone. Just to give a little bit of context about the podcast, last year more than 6,500 listeners, 102 countries, over 1,200 cities across the globe listened to season one of the peacebuilder podcast hosted by patience kamau, featuring faculty and staff from 91����Ƶ’s Center for Justice and Peacebuilding. Season two is currently underway. That’s a little bit about the podcast.

A little bit about patience: She is the digital media strategist and designer at the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding here at 91����Ƶ. At heart, she is a peacebuilder conservationist who sees her role as a conciliatory one between humans and our global environment’s complex ecosystems. Along with others who feel and think similarly, she seeks to continually step into the flashpoint and convince fellow humans that, though we now contextually exist in a free market economic system based on exaltations of short-term growth and endless profits, a blind pursuit of interest maximization with little thought to environmental impact only serves to undermine our species long-term survival. Wow.

Before we get started, I just wanted to note for all of you tuning in via Zoom, you can feel free to, as you think of questions that you’d like to ask patience, to put them in the Q&A. Click the Q&A at the bottom of your screen and put in your question there. We’ll get to questions from the audience at the end. If you’re tuning in via Facebook, feel free to put your questions in that comment section and we’ll see what we have time to get to at the end of the hour.

patience! Good to see you on this lovely afternoon here in Harrisonburg, Virginia. The sun is shining. Look forward to talking.

patience:

Thank you. I’m happy to be here doing this. It’s exciting. (laughs softly)

Lindsay:

I read your bio that you had written up, but I wonder if you could share a little bit more of your story, your journey, how you arrived here at 91����Ƶ and CJP and what all your current role here entails.

patience:

Indeed. I am from Kenya, central Kenya specifically. I came to 91����Ƶ to attend undergraduate, and graduated in 2002 with a degree in computer information systems, which is… at the time, I don’t know whether it currently is, but at the time it was both a computer science and business degree. After graduating, I was feeling my interests sort of shifting toward the end of my undergraduate studies but I wanted to be in peacebuilding, but at the time there was a major then called JPCS or something like that, but I couldn’t switch. It was already too late for me if I didn’t want to stay an extra year or so. Or even two. I graduated in computer information systems and then started working at 91����Ƶ soon thereafter. And I’ve been here since working in various departments, which has been a great joy.

My role at CJP began in 2015. We also chose a time when I was taking my master’s degree within conflict transformation through the program, graduated in 2017 and… still working within the program as a digital media strategist and designer right now. So that’s exciting. That’s my path to 91����Ƶ at CJP.

Lindsay:

Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. And, we’re delighted that you’ve stuck around and fulfilled many important roles here at 91����Ƶ, including for a while in the alumni office. Is that right?

patience:

Correct. Yes. I was in the same division in which you work right now, development. I was there for a couple of years. And then transitioned into institutional research for… I don’t know, maybe two or three years which was directly just before my role at CJP.

Lindsay:

The podcast. How did this start last year? Now you’re in season two?

patience:

Exactly.

Lindsay:

What is the origin story of the peacebuilder podcast?

patience:

The origin story goes back to the summer of 2019, specifically June 2019.

I am a person, well… I’m a child of Africa, so I really, really like heat. I much prefer heat to winter. I remember it being very hot, and June is my favorite month. And I tend to take time off within that month. I was off, and in that space of not needing to be, you know, productive, work wise. It tends to be a very creative space, at least in my head. And out of… what felt like out of the blue, came this idea. Personally, I’m a very voracious podcast listener. I listen to a lot of podcasts while doing all kinds of things. It’s just a way to learn and be engaged in a different sort of way while doing other things.

While I was listening to all kinds of podcasts, I thought we should have a peacebuilder or peacebuilding podcast that actually speaks to concepts and ideas within peacebuilding, conflict transformation or conflict resolution, these fields. And then I wondered if that’s out there. Then, I picked up my phone and started looking, I maybe found two. They were not directly in peacebuilding, but they were in the larger field of what I would say… Maybe they were in peacebuilding, but not in the context in which we do peacebuilding currently. So they were in the periphery and it just felt like such a field that isn’t crowded.

Podcasts have become… they are just growing exponentially. They’ve become what blogs were in the early 2000s. Podcasts have just become the thing. Of course, after the invention of the iPhone, that’s why podcasts exist. Because without that, they wouldn’t exist. I just looked in and I thought, oh, well, this is actually a niche. This is an area where we could… because I would want to listen to a podcast like that. When it wasn’t there, I thought, hmm, maybe create it.

Then I thought, how do you even do that? I laid on my couch right here where I’m sitting with my phone and just literally searched “How do you create a podcast?” That was a simple beginning, and about two to three days later of reading and watching YouTube tutorials I felt like I had the baseline knowledge of actually how to do it. And then once I returned to work, I presented the idea to Jayne [Docherty], who is the executive director at CJP right now. She said, “go for it” And so we did, and here we are.

At least in the first season, we recorded everything in the fall of 2019, and then the episodes began to air last January for the first season, which went through the end of May. And now we’re doing a second season, which is wonderful, which will go again till maybe the beginning or mid-May. That’s the origin story of the Peacebuilder Podcast.

Lindsay:

And am I right that it was originally the first season thought to be a great tie-in with CJP’s anniversary celebration?

patience:

Absolutely, yes yes, you’re absolutely right. We were heading toward celebrating CJP’s 25th anniversary, which was beginning officially on July 1, 2019. So it felt like a really natural tie-in to have this… this medium that can hold a story as human beings. I mean, we’re a species that is made of and responds to story in a very specific way. And podcasts lend themselves excellently well to that. And we have all these voices that are currently present within CJP who were founding voices and also who have been, even if they weren’t co-founders they are still here at the moment. It felt important to capture their thoughts. What was CJP at the beginning? What is it now? And what do they hope that CJP can be or will be in the future– say if, whoever will be here in 25 years from now– what do they envision CJP could be then? And it just felt like a perfect way to capture those thoughts. Maybe put them in a time capsule just because of the natural trajectory of human life a lot of these voices will not be here 25 years from now. And so, yes, it lent itself very, very well to the celebration of the silver jubilee of CJP which we then had to delay because of a certain testy pandemic. But we will re-celebrate again here virtually in just a couple of weeks on June 4, 5, and 6.

Lindsay:

Thank you. Well, you alluded a little bit to kind of why a podcast, what the appeal is in terms of the sort of sheer numbers of podcasts out there. But can you say anything more about why the peacebuilding field might want or need a podcast like this?

patience:

Absolutely.

Lindsay:

From your perspective.

patience:

From my perspective, yeah. (laughs softly) So at the very least, like I said, podcasts are just proliferating in every field. And in any particular area it is very crowded… The areas are just crowded. You will easily find 10, 15, 20 podcasts, but that’s not true yet about peacebuilding. I’m sure that will not be true for too much longer.

And it just feels like a place where people who are inclined toward peacebuilding can go and listen to different ideas. The different ways that peacebuilders present themselves, what they’re thinking about, what they’re researching, and just engage with that sort of information. And personally, I think peacebuilding or conflict transformation is a way of life. Yes, it is a field of study, but I also think that it is a way of life. We use this conflict transformation for ways, you know, high-level conflict resolution, but it is also on an interpersonal sort of level. If we bring them now to a level of how we relate to one another as friends, as siblings, as spouses, as lovers, we actually have richer relationships. So I see it as a way of self-actualization. If we can engage with these ideas and concepts in a format that presents it in a story-kind-of-way that is accessible to people in ways that are not, you know… You don’t have to sit and I mean, it’s different from a book, you can’t read a book while you’re driving. You can listen to a podcast while you’re driving. You can paint and listen to a podcast. You can cook and listen to a podcast. You can take a shower and listen to a podcast.

And so, then, you’re able to engage your mind in a different sort of way while doing other things. I think it’s important, because I feel very passionately about peacebuilding, it is important to bring these ideas into this field so that people actually engage with that and help people live deeper ways of who they actually are, the divine within ourselves, within all of us.

Transition music:

[Transition music plays]

Lindsay:

That leads well into my next question just about this: the numbers have shown over 6,000 listeners in the first season.

patience:

Right.

Lindsay:

A lot of people are interested and are accessing the podcast. Has that surprised you? What has your reaction been to know that there are so many people across the world listening to this?

patience:

It has completely surprised me. I’m like… (laughs) Within the first season, I mean, because it’s really very small. Podcasts are in this day and age produced by studio outfits. What we do, how we create this, is basically a computer. It’s really really small, but we try to make it the best that we can with good voice quality. And there’s a lot of preparation that goes into it. So it’s actually of good quality. But for how small we are, I was very, very surprised, and pleasantly so, to actually see that there was that people responded with a thirst that I maybe suspected was there… Because, like I said, I thought that I would listen to a peacebuilding kind of podcast. And then there were other people who were feeling the same. In the first season, when I began to realize that there were about a thousand people listening per month, every four weeks, it would just increase by a thousand. I thought, “Whoa, wow, okay, something’s happening here.

People are appreciating this. This is good.” So then we kept creating. And then the season ended, which meant that the active promotion of it, (you know, when we drop an episode, there are specific things that we do to actually let people know it’s out there) was done. Then, we weren’t doing those things that are active promotion. But it is a public facing medium. And so people access it depending on… we can’t even anticipate how it is that people come across these episodes and how they listen to them. And on its own inertia it kept itself going for eight months at the very least. Before we picked up again, there were 100 downloads a month and we were doing no promotion at all. It was just people doing it on their own.

That was wonderful. And now that we’ve begun a second season, it’s even ticked up a little more. We are a little more than a thousand listeners per month. It’s fantastic. It is an absolute surprise to me, but a pleasant one. It gives me joy. I am happy because this is really important, very rich content in very many areas. I learned a lot myself while going through it. It’s good to know that it’s a companionship of people from all over the world and we’re working together, learning together, and listening together.

Lindsay:

I’m wondering if maybe you could say just a little bit about the kinds of content that there has been on the podcast so far in case folks haven’t haven’t listened to any of them. What’s the range? What are all the discussion points or how might you sort of summarize what it’s all about?

patience:

Yeah. So the first season and the second season feel different just because of the natural process of how things evolve. The first season was heavily about the history of CJP, but within that there were very specific people… For example, Howard Zehr is in one episode, “Journalist of Justice” and he talks about his own journey into how he started theorizing about Restorative Justice and how it came to be. And so we go into that quite a bit with him.

We talk with Carl Stauffer, who talks about Transitional Justice and what that means to him. A lot of these people also reflect on what the spiritual impact is to them, because many people (at least in my experience) who are in peacebuilding and conflict transformation or conflict resolution work have a spiritual resonance to it. People are not doing it just to make a living. Yes, that’s an important part, but there’s also a process of meaning making that gives their life a certain sense of richness because of engaging in this work.

We have another episode by Dr. Katie Mansfield who engaged a lot on racial issues and she was ahead of the curve. This was before George Floyd was murdered, and her episode had preceded that in so much of what she talked about was so relevant. I could see even after the season was done, a lot of people, especially in the summer when we were having all the protests about Black Lives Matter, were really engaging in that particular episode.

We have another episode by Jayne Docherty, which is on world viewing, which examines or talks about how people engage things differently depending on how they view the world. I don’t know whether she uses this, but it’s something that I’ve internalized is that worldview is common sense to us as individuals until it encounters your common sense (Lindsay and patience laugh together) and then they don’t line up. And how do we make those work? So she talks about that.

In the second season, it’s a bit different in that we’re not necessarily too much engaged in the history of CJP because we’ve covered it. Well, the first episode does, because it’s with Dr. Vernon Jantzi, who was a co-founder of the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding.

But the second and third one, which has been with Catherine Barnes, goes more deeply into concepts of peacebuilding. So Dr. Catherine Barnes talks about deliberative dialogue processes, which is how we design ways of talking with one another, especially with large groups and talking about difficult or vexing problems. That it matters how we create the container in which people come to discuss things, so that then people show up fully as themselves, bring fully who they are, and are able to engage with other people who are in the room. It’s an excellent episode. That could be an episode all on its own about how it is that we engage conversations right now with how the ultra right and the ultra left… we feel like we’re not able to actually converse with one another as a nation here. She talks a little bit about how we can go about doing that, creating containers where we all are just sold out of our mechanical responses that we can fall into very easily just because it feels routine or we take our position, then we don’t want to move away from them

And then the third one is with Dr. Tim Seidel, who talks a lot about the legacies of colonialism throughout and how we should pay attention to how that affects us today, and transnational movements and how a movement in the middle east could possibly encourage a movement here in the US and paying attention to things. He talks a lot about political economy. Things he specifically talks about are the example of a drone that’s flying over the Mexico border, the U.S.-Mexico border versus a drone flying in Palestine-Israel border and trying to look at… “If they’re owned by the same company, who’s benefiting from these sorts of things?” And that sort of larger picture of colonial impact or colonial mindsets and imperial mindsets. And how human beings just sort of… extricate themselves, organize, survive and push back or resist without necessarily looking at the permissions of the central powers, which he calls the metropoles. So yeah, it’s a huge range.

The next episode will be with Dr. Carolyn Stauffer, which is on sexual harm. She’s done a lot of research on that. We have great guests coming up this season, and the whole first season had very impressive guests in and of itself.

Lindsay:

Wonderful. And just a couple of points that I think of to draw out of that are the fact that all of these wonderful guests so far have been connected to faculty or staff of 91����Ƶ and the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding and even just having been here for a number of years, to know that there’s all of this wonderful knowledge and experience, and how you’re drawing it out in a different package than what an academic institution would normally do, I think, is wonderful. And also just as you’re talking about some of these really big things, they’re systems, they’re structures… They’re the big thing that we have to grapple with, right? The systems of oppression and all these different things. But one thing that I really love about the podcast is how through these one-on-one interviews with folks it’s brought so down to earth; and it’s such an approachable personalized human way as you ask folks…

Even just listening to the to the one with Tim Seidel recently, you sort of asked him “how do you manage to know all this and have all this heaviness and navigate that, especially as you’re working with undergraduate graduate students who would probably love some just straightforward answers that you don’t have to give them” And just his ability to acknowledge the daily tensions, the importance of relationships, his family, and all of these things as such a reminder… You know, you can read an article or a book which names all of these problems and forget that there’s people that make up the movements, and the community organizers, the teachers, and all the people who are doing this… They’re people! And you’re sort of highlighting their stories through this podcast, which I think is one of the bright, bright points of it. So I appreciate that you’re doing that with these folks.

patience:

Thank you. And that will be more and more. We will move forward with even inviting other faculty of 91����Ƶ in general, because I think all faculty at 91����Ƶ are peacebuilders in and of themselves and looking at the different programs and majors and how Peacebuilding is actually relevant within that, because this is relevant to 91����Ƶ as an institution in general. It is who we are.

Transition music:

[Transition music plays]

Lindsay:

Back to the bigger picture, the reach of the podcast, what are some of your hopes that you wish listeners will come away with? New knowledge, new connections… What are some of your hopes as you think about the people out there listening to this?

patience:

My greatest hope, honestly, is to encourage a curiosity for self-actualization, because I think every single one of us is so deep and complex. And when we are exposed to ideas and we engage them in the context of the story, then it becomes relevant to us, and we’re able to reach deeper parts of who we are and we can bring that forth. And I don’t think that there’s anything more beautiful than that. (laughs softly) In terms of how we show up as individuals in a very difficult, complex world that breaks us in so many ways…

Even if we’re not having impacts that are worldwide, we can have those changes within our own little circles, within our small relationships with the people that we love, care about or even that we interact with, that we work with. They’re people that we’re in a relationship with. My hope is that as people listen, they can come away with something that is planted in their mind and they can wonder “Oh yeah, what’s that about? Let me go research it again or listen to it again.” And just let it percolate in the back of their mind. I think it changes people when we’re able to engage with such things. It’s the secret of sermons, even in church, you know? It’s something put in you… You hear something that actually moves you, then you walk away thinking about it. I mean, it’s in sermons, it’s in media, it’s what movies do. Good movies will do that. You know, you watch something and you walk away trying to think about it, but it changes you in some way. That’s the hope with the podcast that it does that to some level with the listeners.

Lindsay:

Great. Well, as a listener, I can say that that’s absolutely been the case for me and I think it’s even just so interesting to think about how, like you said, you recorded what ended up airing a lot last spring, even throughout much of the early stages of the pandemic, had actually been recorded the previous fall when we had no idea what was coming. And yet it all felt so timely and relevant and just… In some ways it was a reminder of how like the work that we do at CJP is is about expanding our understanding of… or building these skills and these frameworks and these tools that allow us to then respond in whatever circumstances arise, even when they’re as unprecedented.

(they both laugh softly)

patience:

A global pandemic.

Lindsay:

A year-long global pandemic. As I think about even just being able to go back and listen to the first season again and hear different things now that we’re, you know, a year later and even following up with some of the the folks that you’ve interviewed to go back to them and say “Well, would you still state this the same way or would you think about it differently now with everything that’s happened?” Almost like these stories that have been recorded are at this point in time that can be a reference point as we continue to do the work.

patience:

Exactly. Yeah. That precisely goes back to the point that I was saying then that peacebuilding is so much larger… Even if these were recorded a year and a half ago, it’s still relevant because the concepts are larger. They’re just larger than the moment, than the time.

Lindsay:

Well, I’m curious, just folks might be interested in knowing more about, how do you actually do this podcast? How do you prepare who is involved? How do you plan your interviews? How has all of that been?

patience:

Yes. It’s a small team of three. I work with Luke Mullet and Steven Angelo. Luke is an excellent composer, so all the music literally on every episode that you hear and any musical kind of sound that you hear has come from the creative mind, the creative genius of Luke Mullet. And the smoothness, the quality of the sound is as a result of what Steven Angelo does. He is a sound mixer. I’m going to just step back a bit to when we were talking about how this all started and I researched, how do you create a podcast, all that.

What was clear to me: among the podcasts that I enjoy, they have music in them. I thought: we need to include music. And I happened to have been friends with Luke Mullet on Facebook. I didn’t know him personally. He would post his compositions, and I was always so moved by them. In my head, I thought, “Oh, maybe Luke would do that” But I didn’t know. I happened to run into him at the post office in the campus center right there, outside the window. I stopped him and I said, “Hey, I’m having this idea. Would you consider composing music for this theoretical podcast?” He unhesitatingly said, “Yes, yes, but let’s talk more”. A couple of weeks later, we met at Merge and we talked a little more.

In the meantime, I had an idea. I don’t really know much about music, but I knew the sound that I wanted. I had recorded some sounds on my phone. When we met, I played two different kinds of sounds for him. Let me brag a bit on his genius because I’m just always blown away by it. He listened to it at that moment, then he went away and just composed 30 different sounds that were so beautiful, and within they sounded like what I had played for him. I didn’t even have to play it twice. He just heard it once and boom, he did it.

While we were in that meeting, he said, “I always work with Steven Angelo”, who is a sound mixer I had never heard of. I didn’t even know what a sound mixer was. He explained to me: it’s a person who makes a smooth sound. As soon as he said it, I knew what he meant because I have listened to podcasts where the sound is jagged. At one moment it’s very loud, and another time it’s very low because that’s just the cadence of how we speak as human beings. Like right now, I move forward to the computer and backward, which changes the volume. So for a podcast that needs to be leveled out and that’s what a sound mixer does. And so then Steven was folded in. We had a meeting and boom, we are the team.

What’s the process itself? I invite people, I send them an email, whoever the guests are going to be and I ask them: “Would you consider being part of this podcast?” So far, not a single person has said no, which is really fantastic. They always accept, which is wonderful. I then tend to tell them ”Okay, it’s going to be a two-hour commitment.” Half an hour usually ahead of time to just sort of go through where we meet. I know my invitation to them is usually because I know they have something to say, but what I ask them is: what specifically do you want to talk about? In that half hour, we go over what they want to talk about and then they write it down, they send it to me and then we take a week apart, just letting the information percolate in our heads. No interview is the same from one person to the other because I think each episode reflects who the guest is, and how they show up. As you listen, you will feel the difference. I don’t think any episode is like any other.

I don’t approach any of the recording sessions, which is usually the other half at one and a half hours with the “we will do this and this” In general, I asked them what their path was to CJP and 91����Ƶ. They answer that. From there, it just goes in the direction of their particular expertise or area of research yeah and then once we record it, then I edit it using GarageBand. I don’t edit for content, I edit for quality, so I don’t change what the person said in the editing process. Because again, in the cadence of how we speak, we have words, filler words that we go back to. And when it’s recorded, those stand out very quickly. I just edit those out. I’m sure as I’m speaking here, there are words that I keep going back to. If it was recorded and I wanted to edit I would recognize, oh, I’m saying like a lot. So then I’ll remove two likes and leave one like.

[Lindsay laughs]

That’s the process of editing. And once I’m done, then I send it to both Luke and Steven. Luke then scores it for the mood of what the conversation is, where the transition will be, he sends that to Steven who puts it all together, then he sends it back to me, I transcribe it and we drop it. We drop new episodes every other Wednesday. Monday and Tuesday preceding is usually for transcribing. We transcribe the whole thing, which makes it accessible to people who are hearing impaired

Transition music:

[Transition music plays]

Lindsay:

I’m curious what kind of stories, feedback…I mean, do people who listen to the podcast know about CJP or don’t know about CJP? Are you getting messages from them?

patience:

Yes. Yes. People communicate, they send messages back. I just spoke about transcribing the Monday and Tuesday before the episode drops on Wednesday. Transcribing is the most painful part for me, it is very hard. It’s such a tedious task. But last year during the first season someone wrote to me and they had just encountered the transcript. They were listening and then they happened to find that there was a transcript with it. They wrote, and I could feel their joy and excitement that… They were forwarding it to a relative of theirs who was hearing impaired and they said “She loves this sort of topic, but it’s not accessible besides books.” In a podcast, you would not be able to listen to it and he was just excited to send it to her. Within a couple of days, they both responded in an email and the hearing impaired person was just so gushy about how delighted they were to be able to engage this stuff. And in that moment, it gave meaning to all the painful spies that I had put in it in the trenches of transcribing. And it gave meaning to even the most tedious parts. It reminds me that this is having an impact on at least one person. I’m aware of her. I don’t know how many other people are out there who have that sort of effect.

… Then people will write and say, “Hey, I listened to this and these were my thoughts” and they’ll post the comments after the transcript and said, “I was book binding I’m in Mexico, and this is what I was doing while I was listening to this episode and this is what came to mind.” Other people write, “Hey, I was jogging and I was listening to this and this is what was happening.” When the pandemic started, someone said, “Hey, I am in a cabin somewhere in East Europe. And I was listening and this is what (…)”, so yes, people get in touch and I’m always very amazed at the diversity of where they are, and the activities that they always say that they were doing while they were listening. Other people were gardening. That’s always fun.

Lindsay:

Has anyone had any suggestions for wanting you to cover any particular topic or guest or, sharing what they think we should do?

patience:

Not yet. That would be welcome. Not active listeners. I have had people… you can tell that these are just people trolling who are like, “hey, let me be a guest on your podcast because… whatever.” I’ve had a couple of people who do that and I’m like… Mmm… It doesn’t really line up. But we haven’t. We would welcome that from our listeners, obviously, to know what it is that they would like to hear. I imagine that that will be a direction that naturally, organically develops in that way.

Lindsay:

I guess I should ask you where folks can find the podcast, if they don’t know much about podcasts. My sister recently confessed to me that she’s never listened to a podcast and she is 36 years old.

patience:

She’s a millennial!

[patience and Lindsay laugh together]

Lindsay:

So. How do you find a podcast?

patience:

Multiple ways. The way we’ve tried to make peacebuilder as accessible as possible. Podcasts came to be because of the cell phones, but particularly the iPhone. But this is true for all sorts of cell phones now. If you, for example, have an iPhone, there’s a place that just says “podcast” – it actually says “podcasts.” If you just open that application and then search for Peacebuilder, it’ll show up. Then you can just subscribe and you would be ready to listen to it anywhere you are in the world. You can do the same with Spotify. If you have Spotify on your phone or anywhere, even on a computer, you can search peacebuilder and it’ll show up.

So anywhere you have digital access to even a computer. And we also have it on our website. This is where the transcript lives. It’s called Peacebuilder, and CJP has had a magazine called Peacebuilder for years. On that page: you can find links directly to Peacebuilder, both the magazine and the podcast. And you can listen to them directly there. So you don’t necessarily have to be on your phone to do that. If you have a computer and internet connection, you can listen to it.

Lindsay:

I think you talked a little bit about how season two was different from season one. Did you have any other comments on that? Or what might season three might look like…? Or your plans?

patience:

Season two is obviously getting a little more deeper into ideas and concepts within peacebuilding, which were touched on in the first season but didn’t get as deeply into it. Second season is doing that a bit more.

In my mind, a season three would probably then keep expanding and bringing back, featuring maybe our alumni and the work that they’re doing because…Like we said, peacebuilding is just so huge. We can tap some of our alumni and what they’re doing, and even peacebuilders who are noteworthy, you know, like the sujatha baliga comes to mind. We can have somebody like that who then can bring her knowledge into our listeners’ knowledge and that can mingle. Season three is exciting to think about.

Lindsay:

When you think about how this connects to CJP’s future and the potential for growth of the podcast especially in relation to the other things that are happening at CJP… Do you see a lot of connection there and potential for growth?

patience:

Yes. What immediately comes to mind is… The world has just changed since the pandemic and it’s exponentially changing faster. [laughs softly] Especially in how we occupy digital spaces. I think going forward, if what we do –which is important, in my opinion– at CJP is to educate peacebuilders and put these ideas out there, we need to have a very healthy infrastructure that creates the digital classroom, in a way that helps people learn. And the podcast is just one way to start. I think there are just so many possibilities to do that. And it’s just impossible to even imagine what we will be doing five years from now. But I think the digital classroom will be so different from what it is right now. It’s already different from what it was a year ago. Imagine what it’ll be a year from now.

I think if we can move or at least shift our attention to constructing that infrastructure of the digital classroom or even how we interact with one another that way, we will only be benefiting ourselves and of course the world. I know I’ve said this to you before. In the past, we’ve put a lot of energy in capital campaigns to build physical buildings. I think we will need to put that sort of energy into building digital infrastructure for spaces where people can learn together in ways that are actually engaging and not flatten our interaction… Which kind of feels like that’s where we are right now, when we’re trying to get out of the tensions that we talked about with Tim’s (Seidel) episode. I think that’s part of the tension here in that we were thrust into this space. And so we do the best that we can with it. But I think it serves us best to actually now begin to think ahead about, okay, how do we actually deepen the experience of how we create that digital classroom and how people interact with it so that it actually responds to who we are as social creatures. Does that make sense?

Lindsay:

Yeah. And I can imagine a lot of folks after a year of a lot of digital interaction, Zoom, phone calls, missing the in-person and in some ways…It feels like both more important than ever to create more meaningful digital spaces, and also it feels a little bit exhausting because we all just want to be together again. [they both laugh] And I think about how CJP made the decision for our Summer Peacebuilding Institute to be online again for 2021, just because it’s such a global community, not being sure if people would be able to come together in person… And I’m hearing a lot of feedback that folks are just so ready to get back to being together in person, which totally makes sense.

patience:

I’m ready!

Lindsay:

Yeah! I think people are acknowledging that the reality is that we will be in more digital spaces. From an environmental perspective, not having to travel across the globe in a plane has a lot of advantages too, if we can create really robust and meaningful social spaces in a virtual environment. So I’m excited to think about and envision what that might look like based on the unique offering that CJP has had; with its own way of doing learning in the classroom, co-learning and interactive learning, and thinking about what that looks like in a digital space too. So thanks.

I see where we have about 10 minutes left and just want to remind folks, if you have any questions for patience, use the Q&A function at the bottom of your screen, or if you’re on Facebook, you can write a comment. Do you have any particular question? If there’s something you’re curious about the peacebuilder podcast, something you’d love us to get more into or someone you’d like to hear from, feel free to share a question or a comment. I’ll try to keep an eye out for those.

In the meantime, patience, I can ask you… What other podcasts do you recommend as a voracious podcaster? Do you have anything else we should be paying attention to if we’re interested in the peacebuilder podcast?

patience:

At least the ones that I listen to, I don’t know whether I recommend them. Obviously, people’s interests are very, very diverse.

One of my very favorite ones is called WickPod, which is hosted by Chris Hayes of MSNBC. What he does… I don’t know, it may be peripherally related to peacebuilding, but it just puts into context what’s happening in the world. It’s called Why is this happening? which is really great because he takes a topic… Like for example, two that come to mind are: he took Yemen, what’s happening in Yemen, what has been happening in Yemen for the last two years or, actually four! Which is… a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia, but Yemen is just like caught in the middle and people are just starving. And I hadn’t really wrapped my mind around the forces that were driving that, so when I listened to this episode of Why Is This Happening? He had a Yemeni guest come in and they provided so much context of what was going on. They went deep and I left there thinking, “Oh! Now I actually understand what is going on in Yemen, and why Saudi Arabia and Iran are so interested there”.

In another episode that really stood out to me, at least with that, was when the former president was elected and there was this entire conversation about rewriting trade agreements between countries. He got elected partly because of the populist message around “America first” and breaking all this stuff around. This one woman was in it (the guest that he invited). She was talking about trading agreements that need to be rewritten, but who writes them actually makes a difference that the message that former President Trump was actually saying was not wrong. But he was not the right person to lead those sorts of conversations because he was coming from a mindset of how do we make people rich versus there’s another area where it’s okay we need to trade agreements that help people live fulfilled lives, that are actually paid fairly and all that sort of stuff that’ll flattening all that. That was interesting to actually tease that out because I was getting a bit confused. So that’s one podcast that I really love to listen to that is, yeah, fantastic.

Lindsay:

Great. Thanks. We actually do have a couple of questions here from attendees. The first one is: “What would you say the biggest challenge has been in creating the podcast?”

patience:

[laughs softly, greets the person making the question] Hi Orlando, nice to see you.

It is very fast moving. It’s extremely labor intensive. From the moment of recording to the moment it drops there are just so many pieces that need to be done within such a short amount of time. It’s always a challenge that feels miraculous every time [chuckles briefly] an episode drops. I breathe a sigh of relief: “It actually happened and we got it out in time!” Because it always feels extremely daunting from the moment of beginning that I’m never sure that we’re going to actually meet that. When we do, then I’m relieved, and it’s good…

So that’s the most [challenging thing]… it’s a very labor intensive process. And that’s mainly because we’re such a small team. When I listen to other podcasts, I’m very aware that this work is done by at least 10 people [chuckles softly] who are doing the various little pieces all together. When it’s just the three of us, we have to do more. That’s the most challenging, but it’s also rewarding when we actually push it out and then see people interacting with it.

Lindsay:

Thanks for the question. Next question from David Brubaker, who I think was one of your guests in the first season.

patience:

Yes, episode five: When the Center Does Not Hold

Lindsay:

Yes! ” How much research do you do before each interview? Because it seems like you’re very familiar with every interviewee.” Dave is wondering how much of that is pre-existing knowledge, and how much is research based.

patience:

Mmm… It’s a combination. In the second season, there has been more research. When I meet with them ahead of time, when I meet with guests, that half hour ahead of time, we talk through what they want to talk about. I ask them to send me stuff about what it is we’re going to be talking about. I read it and obviously they already know it. I very intentionally allow a week to 10 days so that I can read it, actually internalize it and let my brain truly internalize it, so that if I’m having a conversation, then I’m able to engage the content in which they are speaking at the level of… obviously not completely on their level, and I’m going to say: at least 50% of the time, the questions that I ask on the podcast, it’s because I want to know. I generally don’t know the answer. I am learning at the same time with the listeners.

So yeah, half and half I know what I’m asking about… Other times they say something and I genuinely want to know what it is that they mean. To be able to do that, with a second season there has been more research dedicated. Time dedicated to actually understanding the topic that the person will be bringing to the table.

Lindsay:

I’ll put out one more call for questions as I also ask you, patience (like you like to do in your podcast!), is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you would hope we would get to?

[they both laugh]

patience:

No, no, you’ve covered it pretty well. I think we’ve talked about everything. Thank you for a lovely conversation. I’ve enjoyed it. Let me mention this: the very final episode of season two will be this conversation, so that our larger listeners are able to access that and maybe have a little more knowledge behind the scenes.

I also want to thank Lauren Jefferson–and you!– for doing this. To Lauren Jefferson for the idea of having this conversation to begin with. That’s wonderful. And for all the work she did to put it together, place Walter in the background who’s helping us run it. Thank you, everyone.

Lindsay:

Absolutely. Thank you for your time today, as well as just my deep appreciation for the lot of work it is to put these podcast episodes together as such a small team. You really have carried this. I think it’s really increased the visibility of CJP and it’s meant a lot to a lot of folks.

I even think about going back to our founding donors, James and Marion Payne, who are no longer with us. They had such a hope that we would find ways of communicating what CJP was about and communicating the message of what peacebuilding is, what it means, like you said, how everyone can be a peacebuilder. I wish that they were alive so that they could listen to this podcast. I think that they would have loved that we’re doing this as a way of really making the mission and the work of CJP accessible to folks. So thank you again.

patience:

My pleasure.

Lindsay:

For all your work with it. And I wanted to invite you to close us, to close our hour if you would with a quote or a poem that I think you’ve been using to center or meditate on lately. And then we’ll sign off.

patience:

All right. Thank you so much. So this is a poem, a Rumi poem from a book translated by Omit Safi. That’s the book, Radical Love. The poem is called Unafraid.

My lips parched through, though I drown in the ocean. I ask my soul for the secret of the beloved.

My only desire to know the secret Monsters seek to kill me.

I’m unafraid.

Infidelity and faith both show up at my heart’s door, hand in hand. I open the door.

Welcome. Come inside.

I am unafraid.

I know if God opens the door here on the inside, there is neither infidelity nor faith.

I love that because it just reminds us of the complexity of our existence. We hold both extremities within ourselves: the tensions, again, that Tim [Seidel] talked about, that we need to balance. There’s neither infidelity nor faith. They’re both within us all the time. So thank you very much.

Lindsay:

Thank you!

patience:

Bye.

Lindsay:

Bye, everyone. A final reminder here, please join us for our anniversary events this weekend, June 4 through 6. All events will be online. Please register to attend at Thanks so much for joining us for the second season of the peacebuilder podcast. Stay tuned for season three next year.

Outro music:

[Outro music begins to play and fades to background]

patience:

All the music you hear on this podcast has been composed by the one and only Luke Mullet. Our audio mixing engineer extraordinaire is Steven Angelou. And the podcast executive producer, all your recording engineer, editor, and host patience kamau. As you are able, please remember to subscribe, read and review this podcast so that other peacebuilders may find it. Thanks so much for listening and join us again next time.

Outro music:

[Outro music resumes and plays till end]

In this episode, Dr. Benjamin Bergey speaks about peacebuilding through music, and how working with intercultural youth ensembles inspired him to enter the field.

Bergey teaches music theory and conducting at 91����Ƶ (91����Ƶ). The university recently announced a new concentration in music and peacebuilding, which Bergey developed. He also conducts the 91����Ƶ choirs and orchestra, conducts the Rapidan Orchestra in Orange County, and served as the music editor for Voices Together, a new Mennonitehymnal.

Bergey told Kamau that he’s always been drawn to leading ensembles, since his early days in church – “bringing people together to make something greater than the sum of its parts.” 

In 2010, during his cross-cultural semester in the Middle East while an undergraduate at 91����Ƶ, Bergey interviewed Palestinians and Israelis about the role of music as a tool of both protest and community-building. He was particularly inspired by two organizations that brought young Arab and Jewish musicians together to build common ground. 

“From a peacebuilding standpoint, we know how dialogue and empathy are those kinds of crucial components in transforming conflict,” he said. The  brought the kids together to sing, create their own songs, and take music classes.  did much the same, but with instrumental orchestra activities. Both organizations also facilitate dialogue between the students.

[This podcast was recorded before escalation of the current conflict in Israel/Palestine.]

Bergey recalled watching an Arab and a Jewish student sharing a violin stand, struggling together through a particular passage of Beethoven’s “Symphony No. 1 in C major, Op. 21.”

“It’s these youth coming together in ways that otherwise doesn’t happen …. it doesn’t happen organically, right, in just normal day-to-day living,” Bergey explained. “Studies show that music making together can … help overcome perceptions of dissimilarity and to work towards accepting others’ differences.”

Organizations like these that work in high-conflict areas aim to bring people together in a safe environment.

“That takes a lot of intentionality, a lot of careful planning and facilitation, where they can share experiences, bring themselves to feel like they can tell stories and make music,” Bergey said. “Because really it’s a vulnerable act, especially singing.” 

Bergey went on to write his doctoral dissertation on music and peacebuilding, and trained with  in 2018. With a slogan of “War Divides, Music Connects,” the Netherlands-based nonprofit works around the world with artists, social activists and communities on conflict. 

Bergey sees immense potential in this field, even for everyday group settings, in which activities like drum circles, group breathing exercises, or collaborative songwriting can help people become grounded within themselves and build trust with one another.

“This really is an exercise in mindfulness, honestly. It’s important for us to both listen and feel what’s happening within ourselves, but also be able to listen and, dare I say, empathize with those around us,” said Bergey.

Guest

Dr. Benjamin Bergey

Dr. Benjamin Bergey is assistant professor of music at 91����Ƶ, where he directs the choirs and orchestra, and teaches courses on music theory and conducting. He is an active musician who currently conducts the Rapidan Orchestra in Orange, VA. He completed his doctorate and masters at James Madison University in Orchestral Conducting.
��
Additionally, Bergey is a prominent music leader in the Mennonite Church, currently serving as Director of Music at Harrisonburg Mennonite Church, and notably as Music Editor for Voices Together, the new hymnal for Mennonite Church USA and Mennonite Church Canada, as well as compiler and editor for the hymnal’s Accompaniment Edition. He regularly leads worship and resourcing events at assemblies, workshops, and conferences, and is the music planner for the 2022 Mennonite World Conference Assembly music and songbook.��
��
His doctoral research focused on how ensemble music is a tool in peacebuilding by bringing diverse people together for building empathy and dialogue, using two groups in Israel and Palestine as examples. He has written several articles on music and peacebuilding and has started a new interdisciplinary major at 91����Ƶ called Music and Peacebuilding.
��
Bergey is married to his wife, Kate, who together have two children, and they love to garden, bike, and hike.

Transcript

Benjamin:
Early on, this happened a lot actually in church. And, you know, I was, I was very involved in leading music in church and being a part of choir and that kind of thing. And this, uh, it’s really a beautiful and sacred privilege to help to connect the congregation into song and how that connects with worship. Um, but then in 2010 I did a cross-cultural through 91����Ƶ to the middle East. And, um, we were supposed to do a, uh, research project of some sort. And I chose to do some interviews with folks around how music was used in and around the conflict in Israel and Palestine, you know, so music as protest or building community, telling stories, bringing people together, advocacy, you know, whatever. I was just really interested in how was music being used? And so that started this interest in learning more about music’s role in peace building or within conflict and community and those kinds of things.

Patience:
Hi, everybody, happy Wednesday to you. Welcome back to peacebuilder, a conflict transformation podcast by the center for justice and peace building. My name is Patience Kamau and our guest in this episode is

Benjamin:
Benjamin Bergey, assistant professor of music at 91����Ƶ and advisor of the music and peacebuilding major as well as director of music at Harrisonburg Mennonite church.

Patience:
Dr. Benjamin Bergey is assistant professor of music here at Eastern Mennonite university, where he conducts the choirs and orchestra and teaches courses on music theory and conducting, and also conducts the rapid and orchestra in orange County, Virginia. He completed his master’s and doctoral education in orchestra conducting at James Madison university. Additionally, Bergey is a prominent music leader in the Mennonite church, currently serving as director of music at Harrisonburg Mennonite church and notably as music editor for Voices Together. The new hymnal for Mennonite Church USA and Mennonite Church Canada, as well as compiler and editor for the hymnals accompaniment edition.

He regularly leads worship and resources events at assemblies workshops and conferences, and is the music planner for the 2022 Mennonite Conference assembly music and song book, his doctoral research focused on how ensemble music as a tool in peacebuilding can bring diverse people together for building empathy and dialogue, using two groups in Israel and Palestine as examples, he has written several articles on music and peacebuilding and have started a new interdisciplinary major here at 91����Ƶ called music and peacebuilding. Bergey is married to Kate who together have two children. They love to garden, bike and hike.

Theme Music:
[Theme music plays]

Patience:
But you telling us how you, your journey to 91����Ƶ you graduated for, um, from 91����Ƶ, your undergraduate.

Benjamin:
That’s right.

Patience:
How did you get here?

Benjamin:
Yeah, so I’m originally from Southeastern Pennsylvania. Um, but uh, many family members actually came to 91����Ƶ. And so I was already sort of familiar with the campus. I’m the youngest of three. Um, my older brothers had, um, gone here. And so, um, but that actually wasn’t the biggest straw. Um, in fact, I actually thought that would be a deterrent. Um, and, uh, so I was looking at a number of different schools and particularly interested in music and at that point, um, pre-med but really one of the biggest draws uh, was, um, some of the professors here and in particular, wanting to study with Ken Nafziger in, um, church music and conducting, and some of that kind of thing. So, uh, in the end, that was some of the biggest draw and, um, the beauty of the Shenandoah Valley. And I haven’t left ever since coming down and now it’s been, Oh, uh, 15 years. So

Patience:
How does it feel to be teaching in the program in which you said Ken Nafziger was part of the reason you came, he’s now retired and you’re somewhat slipping right in there into maybe not necessarily his shoes, but an area where he filled for many, many years. How does that feel to you?

Benjamin:
Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s truly, um, a joy and an honor to be back here. Something I was really looking for after, after the doctorate was to be at a place not just to sort of climb the ladder of universities or something, but really to be at a faith-based institution, one where I felt missionally aligned to that kind of thing. And so honestly, 91����Ƶ is like sort of the optimal place to look for. And right around that time, there was a position open and, um, it really couldn’t have worked out better as quite quite a godsend to, to sort of have that alignment of time. The department has changed, um, in terms of sort of the structure of, of faculty and how many, so it is quite a different position and it’s actually quite, quite a great fit for my gifts and things. So, um, it’s really an honor.

Patience:
That’s fantastic. How has the department changed since you were a student to now you being a faculty member in the department?

Benjamin:
Uh, well, just sort of this, the, um, full-time equivalence of how many faculty are there and, um, some of the course offerings, even, you know, adding different majors just in terms of that makeup. And it always changes depending on the giftings of each faculty member, you know, so yeah, that’s, that’s part of it.

Patience:
I was looking at your bio here and you’re talking about one of your projects being, working with, uh, a new hymnal for the Mennonite Church USA and Mennonite Church, Canada, Voices Together. Um, what does that entail being, uh, the music editor for that?

Benjamin:
Uh, well, fortunately now it’s just, um, enjoying use of it and helping others figure out how to use it. So it’s, it’s a very, uh, joyful time and, and one that’s a little less intensive than it was during the actual construction of it. Um, but it was about a four year project. Um, and our role was to listen to the broader church, um, pull in lots of research. You know, we, we looked at over 10,000 songs and about double that in worship resources. And, um, then went through the process of figuring out a balance of things. How do we resource our diverse denominations and how do we then represent that on the page? And, um, so a lot of balancing work, a lot of research. And then, and then, uh, a lot of prayerful consideration about what ends up being there because it’s, it’s, it’s quite a project in a lot of ways, but it was, it was, uh, a huge, um, uh, privilege to be a part of that service to the, uh, to the denomination.

Patience:
So your involvement here. So after you graduated from 91����Ƶ, then you earned your masters from James Madison University in orchestra conducting, how did you choose that program? It’s just a neighbor, neighboring college right here.

Benjamin:
Yeah. Um, well I, growing up, I really always loved, um, ensemble, directing choirs and orchestra, and I, you know, I’d sit in my bedroom as a middleschooler with a score and a Baton with a conducting a CD. So I’ve always sort of had this affinity toward, um, leading a group in music. And, um, there’s not really undergraduate programs for that. So you generally just do some sort of music major for your undergrad, and then you go onto graduate school to do that specific thing. So then I was just looking at schools and as, as the selection process went on, um, JMU has a really great music school and, and good assistantships, and we were sort of starting to be settled here in the Valley. And so it’s just sort of made sense and it worked out really well and actually it worked out even better than I thought it could. And so, yeah, it, it was very good. Yeah.

Patience:
What’s an ensemble and, or chamber music. So the terminology, what, what is the difference? What are they, what is that?

Benjamin:
Yeah, so ensemble just sort of a broad term for a group of musicians coming together and play music, so that can refer to choir, band, orchestra, that kind of thing, um, you know, derive from the French, meaning just together. So chamber music, um, is generally sort of refers to a smaller group of things. So it could be as small as a trio, quartet, just a few people. Um, and sometimes even like a chamber group, like a small group of singers or a chamber ensemble of string players, and maybe it’s 10 or 12 or something like that. So it generally sort of has a smaller connotation to it.

Patience:
So the podcast is called peacebuilder and you are part and parcel of the introduction of a new major with an 91����Ƶ undergraduate program called music and peacebuilding. Can you talk about that? You’re smiling, even as I mentioned it, I think it’s, it seems it’s something you are excited and proud to be part of, uh, what does music and peacebuilding, and it was part of what you studied for your doctorate,

Benjamin:
Right? Yeah. Yeah. I’m smiling because I’m very excited about it. Um, it’s really a new thing in, in higher education, um, to have a major specifically focused on this and really our goal here is to attract students who have interest in music as well as peacebuilding. And so 91����Ƶ is a good place to test this kind of a program and develop it. And, you know, I would say many in, in the peacebuilding world and, and probably quite a few of your listeners are already, um, used to art space, peacebuilding and using the arts as a tool in peacebuilding. Um, but, um, on the music side of things that’s not necessarily talked about in sort of those words.

Um, and so even though many ensemble directors or musicians do things because they love coming together with people, they love the empathic side of music making. They want to enact social change. So even though the concepts are there, whether they’re aware of it or not, um, we don’t necessarily have it in the curriculum and it’s not necessarily quite as intentionally, um, taught and facilitated. And so my goal here is, um, to bring those two, I mean, there, there are a lot of art space peacebuilding a lot of arts that can be used n really effective in peacebuilding. Um, my background is in music, so that’s where I’m focusing in, in this and, and also this morning

Patience:
Specific journey to combining music and peacebuilding, how did that come together for you personally?

Benjamin:
Well, I think it, it started even before I had any inkling, um, like I have, as I sort of mentioned, I I’ve been drawn to leading ensembles, which in a lot of ways is, is facilitating, bringing people together to make something, uh, greater than the sum of its parts. If you will, early on, this happened a lot actually in church. And, you know, I was, I was very involved in leading music in church and being a part of choir and that kind of thing, and this, uh, it’s really a beautiful and sacred privilege to help to connect the congregation into song and how that connects with worship.

Um, but then in 2010 I did a cross-cultural through 91����Ƶ to the middle East and, um, we were supposed to do a, uh, research project of some sort. And I chose to do some interviews with folks around how music was used in and around the conflict in Israel and Palestine, you know, music as protest or building community, telling stories, bringing people together, advocacy, you know, whatever. I was just really interested in how was music being used. And so that started this interest in learning more about music’s role in peace building or within conflict and community and those kinds of things. And so then when I got to, um, my doctoral studies, you know, I was told, choose something that you are really interested in passionate about so that you can take it to completion because it’s a big project, right.

And so I was like, well, I really want to find something at the intersection of music and peacebuilding. So that was of course much too broad at that stage. And so I just started diving into the literature and, and, you know, trying to see different groups that are, um, working at using music in peacebuilding from an organizational standpoint and found a couple of groups, um, the Jerusalem youth chorus and the polyphony foundation that specifically brought youth together in ensemble music, um, as a means to find common ground and on that sort of relationship, that common ground, they then have professionally facilitated a dialogue. And so that was sort of the key that brought my study together. And I really wanted to look at what, how were they doing that? You know, what kinds of techniques or activities, whatever. And, um, how does that then lead to, uh, dialogue and what can that dialogue, um, do.

And, you know, from, from a peacebuilding standpoint, we know how dialogue and empathy and those kinds of, um, crucial components are in transforming conflict. And so, um, yeah, it was just a fascinating, fascinating study. Um, and that, that, you know, as I then sort of wrapped up the dissertation in, in the final chapter on, you know, how could further study or research or those kinds of things, I was like, well, I think there’s a lot that could be done yet in, um, curricular-izing, this work, how can it enter higher education, especially to engage the musicians who may not have thought about their work as peacebuilding, but yet really is.

Um, so it’s sort of to tap into that, um, side of things and work on training with that. That’s sort of what led me into 91����Ƶ. And, you know, I had been meeting with folks about this for a few years now. Um, and now that I, then once I was hired, it’s a little easier to start to work on things like this, because it, you know, you have to, um, really develop, uh, a curriculum and do the paperwork and get approval. And just a few months ago, you know, got that approval. So this is a very, this is a very fresh program that we’re going to start in the fall. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Patience:
It’s, it’s, it’s one thing to actually have the theories in mind and to actually then practically make them a reality. Um, that’s that’s, that would be great. Um, some other organizations, you said you worked with are music musicians without borders, what is that? It sounds like doc doctors without borders. Yeah.

Benjamin:
Yeah. That’s I think that’s where they had the inspiration for their name. Yeah. And they’re one of the bigger organizations I would say that is doing this specific kind of thing. Um, I did a training with them back in 2018, um, and they, so yeah, they do a lot of, uh, training work for folks interested in using music, um, and musical related things in peacebuilding work, but they also work a lot around the world helping to develop new programs in their given contexts. So it’s not a sort of one size fits all model, but rather they help train leaders who are already there in the midst of high conflict areas or areas that they’re interested in doing this. And they help them think through what kinds of programs would help to meet the needs that you have in your community and, and then do help with advocacy work and, um, building those structures. But they really let it up to, to the leaders within those contexts and communities.

So, um, yeah, it’s some, it’s some really amazing work. Um, and they, they have developed a lot of theories and curriculum that, um, that they then train others and even train trainers to help with. So, um, yeah, I was just actually speaking with, um, one of the staff persons last week about possible collaborations with this program and, and, um, ways that they could be involved or that kind of thing. So I’m really excited about staying in touch with them and, and seeing how they can continue help to help in our contexts as well.

Patience:
Does anything come to mind that very directly impacted you, having been trained with them?

Benjamin:
Yeah, so often when people ask me, you know, like, so what, like, what do you actually do with music in peacebuilding like, other than just singing together or playing music together. And I often then refer to lots of things that I learned during those trainings of, of specific activities that are, that are intentionally crafted and designed and then where you have to facilitate them in a way that reaches the goals around how they were designed. And so, um, that is really, I think a lot of what the sort of nuts and bolts, the nitty gritty of, of what we can do with music and peacebuilding that can transcend just an ensemble, but like when you start a meeting or when you’re at a retreat or when you’re trying to enter some negotiations between two parties, mediation. So, um, yeah, that’s, that’s where the fun stuff happens.

Patience:
Tell us about that? How does that actually happen?
How, how do people actually do that on day to day lives, for example, in meetings and all this sort of stuff?

Benjamin:
Yeah. So one is just a simple sort of breathing exercise. And so like in a group setting, you just could have everybody, everybody close their eyes and just simply breathe in and out. And so I usually say, you know, don’t control it, just bring awareness to the inhales and exhales. And then as the breath turns from the inhale to the exhale, they just snap their fingers, um, and, or clap if they have trouble snapping or whatever. And immediately what happens is there’s this sort of like percussion choir of snaps that represent where the breath is, is turning from inhale to exhale.

So it sort of is speed and location of the entire group. And it may not sound that awesome right now, but it really ends up being a really powerful experience for those who are open to it, um, just where you hear how your breath is connected, but yet also a little bit different. And then you can even do a more advanced version where, uh, everyone makes a sound on the exhale and it can be pitched or not. Um, and it sort of turns into basically an improvised song or sound and, and, uh, what you do as the facilitators. You encourage them to feel the sound inside of them while listening to the sounds around them.

So this really is an exercise in mindfulness, honestly. Um, it’s, it’s important for us to, to both listen and feel what’s happening within ourselves, but also be able to listen. Um, and, uh, dare I say, empathize with those around us at the same time, right? Another one that is a really simple one that can be done sort of anywhere is, um, like if you’re going around doing introductions, um, and you have each person say their name, uh, but also give a sound or a movement or say their name in a certain way. And everyone then repeats their name with the same tone or inflection or their emotion.

And so it just requires us to listen and mimic each other and what happens is, uh, we’re more likely to actually learn the name and it gives a glimpse into how people are feeling or, um, it helps us move and it to the person who is introducing their own name, it’s so incredibly validating to have the entire group say your name and match, uh, the movement and, and these movements, like when you’re, if you’re thinking like, okay, let’s all go around and say your names. You’re not really thinking about moving but movement. Like, I mean, as we know, like fear, trauma, conflict, stress, these kinds of things, they can really root in our body into tension. Right. And so movement helps us loosen up. And so it’s, they’re just really simple activities, but have such profound thought behind them and intentionality around the facilitation that, um, yeah, they can really help to transform a boring meeting.

Patience:
So when you say movement, do you mean physical movement or like musical movement or both?

Benjamin:
Um, it’s sort of up to the person. So, um, so for example, if I’m feeling happy that day and just like I’m awake and whatever, and I say, you know, my name is Benjamin and I put my hands up and sort of like a victory pose. And so everybody does that and they say it the same way and do that. Or, or if, if I’m, you know, just feeling a little down and tired and I sort of put my hands together and rest them on my hands. And you know, my name is Benjamin that that’s saying I’m tired or, you know, whatever, then everybody’s doing that. And meanwhile, they’re just moving there. They’re learning each other’s names. They’re also recognizing how we’re bringing ourselves into that space. And that is, that’s a lot of empathy.

Patience:
Um, uh, drum circles is another one you said, can you talk about that?

Benjamin:
Oh yeah. I mean, there could be a whole podcast on drum circles. Um, yeah. There’s, I mean, there’s, there are a lot of books and research, um, and theories around the yeah the importance of drum circles and how to facilitate, how to lead effective, um, ones. But, uh, yeah, a few things that come to mind. One, it could just be a really cathartic experience. Um, you know, just, you’re all like banging on drums or whatever, you have to make some noise. Um, and it’s quite a workout. Like you can really, you can work up a sweat if you’re, if you get into really into it. Yeah. And you also don’t need to be a percussionist at all to participate.

I have done this so many times with people who are like, Oh my goodness, I’ve never, I’ve never done a drum or anything. Like, I don’t even know how to use this thing, whatever you put in it. And they sit there for a while and that’s fine, you know, they’re taught, like you don’t have to do anything. You could just sit here and listen. Um, and then after a while they, you know, they’re like, well, I guess I could, I guess I could just hit it a little bit and then they start getting into it and they realize, well, okay. Yeah, I don’t need to be trained to use this thing. We all have, like, if you have a heartbeat, you have a rhythm. Um, and so, uh, and then, you know, you can pass the sort of focal point around, so you don’t want to be the, as the leader, you don’t want to be the sole focal point. And so you can get other people to do sort of call and response things. You can have just a section of a, of the circle play louder and everybody else play quieter. And it’s sort of like a group solo, but it also helps getting people to listen while they’re still drumming. Yeah.

There’s a lot, there’s a lot in it, but it’s, it’s really, um, an effective thing in building, building community, building group cohesion, a common ground. And so, yeah, it’s, it’s, um, something that we will, we will do fairly often. Um, and if listeners here are, you know, ever hear of a drum circle in their area that they want to be a part of or something I really recommend going to go. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Patience:
What’s paper game?

Benjamin:
Oh, this is, this is great. So well, so, so creativity is really an important part. I think about this, um, because music is, so the arts in general, I mean are really creative at its core. And creativity really can open up our mind to lots of different things, which can then make brainstorming or negotiating or dialogue more interesting and effective and that kind of thing. And so the, the paper game, uh, is really a creative activity where each person just gets a piece of paper. And the idea is to find the breadth of noises that one can make with a piece of paper. So crumbling tearing it, rubbing it together or against something, um, you can blow on it, shake it, hit it, you know, so there’s actually a lot you can do with a simple piece of paper in making sounds. And so what you find is there, um, there is a lot. And so the, the rule that you only give basically this role and that is that you either, um, initiate a sound, imitate a sound or observe what is happening. So those are the three things you choose from. Um, and then otherwise there’s no, no other rules.

So, so really, it just means you come up with something or you see what someone else does and imitate it, which really basically means everything. But by framing it that way as initiate, observe or imitate, um, it helps the participants to conceptualize what they are doing as a part of the whole, even though it’s a pretty individual thing, they’re just making a sound with paper. Um, and so that way they’re making the sound with the paper, but they’re also thinking about it as a way to lead others, to make that sound. Or if they’re thinking about something to do, they can also be more aware of what others are doing around them and, and try that. And so really it shows that, that the framing and the facilitation is pretty key to these activities, which is true in, in peacebuilding work in general. Right. You know, how we frame things can either foster creativity and safety or hamper it. Um, yeah. So those are some of the most simple activities that, that we do, but they can have such a profound, uh, impact in group dynamics.

Patience:
Yeah. How about writing song together? How does that work?

Benjamin:
Right. So that’s something that some of these groups do, um, that I was researching. And, um, so this can have, you know, the, sky’s the limit really into how it works, but they have found that it’s really, really important to, um, come together and do something new that you created together. And so it’s sort of a more neutral, neutral ground of music. So, you know, they often will share their own songs or share music from their contexts, but that’s not necessarily neutral per se. And so this, this creating a new song together is something that’s a shared experience.

And so, um, they would spend a lot, you know, in, in Jerusalem youth course, for example, they would spend, um, a lot more time doing this, but for, for a shorter activity, if you’re in just a group or something, doing something like a silly song where, where the, you know, you’re just coming together to do something quick and funny, uh, is, is pretty easy. And, and that’s where you can have each person help develop a story. The facilitator, the facilitator could even give prompts or questions that you answer, and those answers become parts of the phrases. Um, you could even add a rhyme scheme if you really want, or just, you know, pick a topic and come up with some phrases and then you just start riffing on a melody.

And so this is where, you know, doing this with a group that is feeling comfortable enough with each other to, to sort of sing and you just start, um, you just start and, and, and whoever starts feeling like, okay, I think I, I got something and they, they do something. Then someone responds, it’s very much just improvisation. And, and it’s, it’s actually quite related to group improvisation, um, which is another very effective tool for, for already established ensembles or that kind of thing. We just did it last week in, in choir. Um, you just get something started and everybody starts chiming in and you make this really interesting and quite powerful tapestry.

Patience:
Oh, do you have an example now? Now this is just completely out. Whether it works out or not. I’m just thinking if you have it recorded, maybe we can integrate it into this.

Benjamin:
I do, actually. Yeah. So last week I have to let the choir know, but, but yeah, last week we, um, you know, I could just tell we were it’s, it’s that time of the semester where, where, you know, we didn’t get a spring break and, and folks are a little tired. And so I was like, all right, let’s just, uh, somebody have a baseline and somebody just start at baseline. And so they did about a measure to, um, sort of repeated phrase a note, no texts, just, you know, I just repeated the phrase. And then as people started to feel like, okay, I sorta got what that sounds like, and they add something and then a few more chime in and then it starts to grow and everybody’s in, and you’re, you’re simultaneously listening to each other to respond to what you’re hearing, as well as adding your own voice into it.

And so it’s, it’s obviously quite a powerful image when you stop and think about it, but it’s also just fun. And afterwards, you know, they’re, they’re clapping and hooting and hollering, and all of a sudden now they have more energy and are feeling a lot better. And that’s, you know, that’s where, that’s why we love what we do.

Transition Music:
[Transition music plays]

Patience:
Let’s talk about overall goals of music and peacebuilding.

Benjamin:
Yeah, these are just some that come to mind at the top of the list. There would be of course, um, others, but, uh, the first is just creating common ground. And so this idea of having a shared experience, a shared music making, um, and others who do incorporate storytelling and just getting to know each other, um, building relationship really is, is part of it. And what it allows also is, is building some social capital, which takes time. Um, but if, you know, you really do need some of that to work at transforming any conflict or that kind of thing.

And so that’s, that’s really the role that this music can have. And, um, and sort of along with that in common ground is, is realizing the shared humanity. Like what, what this experience of, you know, I’ve seen some groups of youth from diverse backgrounds, um, sitting together in an orchestra and they’re working on, uh, one thing at one time I saw they were working on Beethoven’s fifth symphony and, uh, violins often share stands. It’s common to have two musicians with one stand and having an Arab and a Jew, uh, sitting together with a shared stand and, you know, just sort of struggling with the same passage of music on their violin and realizing, Oh, like, yeah, we, we both have this same shared experience, this shared humanity. Um, and so that’s so important. It’s so powerful that music can do group music can do, um, in creating common ground.

So that’s sort of one thing, the other huge thing that, um, was a big focus of my research too, is, was building empathy and this idea of, of, um, role in music making, but also in peacebuilding, um, and building empathy has done in many ways, um, uh, yeah, starting with just being self-aware. So building self-awareness, um, but also then sharing experiences, sharing narrative experiences, um, to help others understand their context. Um, it’s, uh, it’s built in validation of others and, and so music making can really help with those. Um, and in fact, studies show that music making together can help build, or excuse me, help overcome perceptions of dissimilarity and to accept then to, to work towards accepting other’s differences.

Um, and that ties into the common ground part really too, um, and it’s also about building anti-oppressive competencies. So some of the things that the, um, that the Jerusalem youth chorus especially worked toward was, um, being aware of each other’s identities and, and the privileges they’re in, um, who’s included, who’s excluded by doing certain activities or by saying certain things. And by being aware of that by, by recognizing the humanity or others’ experiences, um, in those contexts, in those situations is huge towards building empathy, um, of, of those who otherwise you wouldn’t have known about, or didn’t realize, um, how different the power structures and levels were. Um,

Patience:
I like this line where you said two sides of empathy are emotional contagion that is more feeling spaced and catching the emotions of others and the intellectual side of empathy, putting yourself in another situation intellectually.

Benjamin:
Right. So, yeah, in, in research on empathy, there’s sort of these two components, two sides of a coin, the emotional contagion, um, is, is that part that you sort of catch that emotion. Um, it can be contagious, uh, you know, like when someone’s laughing uncontrollably and you can’t help, but just laugh because they’re like, I have no idea what’s so funny, but I guess I’m going to laugh. Um, and then, uh, the intellectual side is, is really where you’re, where you’re trying to learn and think and put yourself in someone’s shoes and what must, what that must be like. And that’s a bit harder, um, conceptually to teach, but, um, it’s, you gotta practice it to get better at it. So, yeah.

And then another goal I would say would, um, uh, especially related to, to the research of where I focus is creating conditions for constructive dialogue. Um, dialogue is huge. It’s so important. And so how do we teach listening? How do we teach listening to understand, uh, you know, we have classes on reading on writing on speech, um, but we don’t really have classes on listening and it’s so important. Um, so it’s not dialogue is not, you know, debate. It’s not waiting until the other, person’s finally done talking so that you can say, uh, so you can say your piece. Um, but it’s really, it’s, it’s understanding it’s finding commonalities. What is, uh, you know, I like to ask what’s really at the root or the heart of what they’re saying, because sometimes it’s not, um, right there on the surface, you have to think, well, what’s sort of behind this, that that is manifesting in what they’re saying and where are maybe their needs not being met, that that is leading to this.

And so then that sort of feeds into the, uh, the final goal that I wrote was sort of meeting the needs and breaking cycles of oppression. So, um, and this is some of the work that these organizations are especially doing in high conflict areas. So, you know, bringing people together in the place of safety. And so that takes a lot of intentionality, a lot of careful planning and facilitation, um, where they can share experiences, bring themselves to feel like they can tell stories, make music, um, because really it’s a vulnerable act, especially singing. Um, singing really is a vulnerable act because we are using a part of our body, right. That you don’t really have, uh, you can’t change it very well. Like if you don’t like your voice, there’s only so much you can do. And so if you share your voice with someone and you’re afraid, they don’t like it, that’s a vulnerable thing. Like, it’s, it’s another thing to just play a violin. The violin is external. Yes, you’re using your body to play it and you’re using your gifts to play it. But at the end of the time, you can set it down and it’s no longer a part of you, but you can’t do that with your voice it’s embodied. So it’s really vulnerable.

And that’s, that’s why safety is so important. Um, especially, you know, as we talk in music education, and especially in the choral world and, and how you create a classroom culture, and those kinds of things, safety is important toward, um, bringing one’s self to be able to sing or make music. So, and then in, in doing that, then, um, you’re looking at what are the needs of the people here? How are they being met or not, and is anyone hindering the need of another? And so, in a sense by definition, right, this is nonviolence. And, and how does it have the ability then to break those, um, those hindrances of needs or break those cycles?

Patience:
Yeah. As he was saying that I was thinking, I mean, as you say about, you know, the safety that people need to feel and the connection to breath, because when we don’t feel safe, we breathe in a very shallow manner. And the little that I know about music is that it’s a lot about breath control and being able to do that. And so how does that, how do you all bring, um, trauma awareness to such spaces so that people are actually able to work with their breath in a way that they can control it and sing? You know what I mean?

Benjamin:
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That’s, that’s awesome. Um, so yeah, and, and that is especially, um, huge in the choral world because of the connection of breath and singing, obviously it breath is singing. Um, and so, uh, yeah, warmups often include breathing exercises and being aware of one’s breath and, and the, the, um, you know, where we are taking the breath, is it really shallow and up high? You know, that’s, that’s not as good because you’re not really feeling the breath and your, um, but I’d say the other way that that connects to all music really is that we talk about how can you do it in a way with the least amount of tension. And so, um, because anything you play or sing or do, if there’s tension, it’s not as great technique, um, it will hinder your playing at some point, even if you could at least play a little bit, or you do something for some level.

Patience:
You mean tension in the body?

Benjamin:
Yeah, yeah. In particular tension in your body, physical embodied tension. And so we try to find ways of, you know, cause sometimes like playing a flute or a violin or cello, they’re not necessarily, um, it doesn’t always feel great depending on how you’re moving your body. And so you want to find ways to play that fit with your body to, to release the most amount of tension possible. Um, and so that’s connected, I think a bit too, um, uh, especially the, the tension and breath component that you were talking about in trauma awareness.

But also then I would say in, um, how we design and create a classroom culture or an ensemble culture, um, and activities and other things that are around and musicians without borders talks about these in terms of five, um, sort of five key concepts or words, uh, being safety, inclusion, equality, and then creativity and quality. And so those first three safety inclusion and inequality are I think really getting at, um, creating a space where, um, where folks can start to shed some of that and bring, um, bring themselves in a vulnerable way, knowing that, um, at least we’re going to try to be without judgment or where, where folks are on a similar level.

And so I would also add them to those five, um, accessibility because, um, traditionally music and just even, um, obtaining instruments, you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a challenge for many. And so how do we in music education or in bringing people together for me is like, um, create a more accessible world, um, for it. How can they access access it? And then also just diversity in general, how do our students see themselves represented in repertoire? You know, the composers that were being used, the soloists were showing are bringing in guest speakers, guests, uh, you know, things like that. Um, so I would just sort of add those, but all of that, I think relates to, to your question there.

Patience:
Feelings of safety within music. Yeah.

Transition Music:
[Transition music plays]

Patience:
Let’s cover a bit about this new program at 91����Ƶ. Um, what are people talk us through? So a student signs up for it, this coming fall, how do they go through it in four years? What do they learn? What do they gain? What do they produce and all that talk us through it.

Benjamin:
So, um, I would be working with them as their advisor. And, um, so generally speaking on the, the, the foundational curriculum that they’d be doing, it’s, it’s an interdisciplinary program. And so they would be having a sort of core set, um, a foundational set of music courses, and then also from peacebuilding and development, but then throughout each year, we’d be setting goals and projects for them to be working on, um, that would be leading toward what they are envisioning for their career or their interests, their post-grad, uh, goals.

And because really this can take a lot of forms. It’s not just leading into music education or something. It’s also, um, there are a lot of nonprofits and perhaps adding in more nonprofit management types of things or entrepreneur, uh, business classes, um, psychology, anthropology, sociology. I mean, there’s so much.

Patience:
There’s science, I think you’re having a guest coming to campus soon, right?

Benjamin:
Yes. Yeah. And we’ve had a couple students actually interested in music and neuroscience, and there’s so much fascinating research and things being done in that field. Um, and it’s not unrelated to music and peacebuilding as, as those theories and, you know, how does the brain work? How do people work? Um, and how, how does knowing that influence, um, how we interact then? Um, and so, yeah, so understanding what a student is interested in, in, in that way will help us then, uh, it would help me advise on how to, uh, add electives or do these projects that we do outside of the official courses and things. And also in between at this point, you know, we didn’t add many new courses yet.

And so I would add sort of unofficial things like colloquiums and trainings and things like that. I did with musicians without borders and going into the community and trying them out. Like we would be doing that through the, throughout the program. And then that would, um, sort of lead them to in their final year, they would be doing a practicum or an internship anyways, with the peacebuilding and development, uh, sort of program. Exactly. And they would choose something within that to help integrate these techniques and concepts that we’re working on. So there’d be that applied practicum, but then also, um, a senior capstone project.

And so that would be the combination of the things that we’ve been working on, especially in more of the unofficial channels along the way, but also like, so what can we do that is, um, within the world of your interests and what you hope to be doing hopefully next year, if you’re a senior, you know, how can we integrate that and give you a great experience in that as well as the portfolio of what you’ve been working on, you know, website development, you know, that sort of self-branding kinds of things. So, um, yeah, it’s a really the ideas for it to be quite tailored because it’s, it’s, it’s a broad thing that can have a lot of reach in different avenues, depending on a student’s passion or vocation.

Patience:
Um, yeah, as we get here toward the end, I am curious for you to speak into the Southern African term “ubuntu,” which is I am because you are, and you have it here as, uh, in relation to ensemble music and how it can help to facilitate better music and better dialogue. You’ve probably touched on this a bit, but you want to talk a little bit more about it?

Benjamin:
Sure. Yeah. In so many words, right. Uh, um, yeah, and I, I love this term and it gets used in a number of, um, places and, um, but it really helps I think to just give one word, um, to, uh, yeah, referring to our shared humanity, our interconnection, um, and you know, it’s, it really is a beautiful thing. And I, and many other ensemble directors in particular really use this concept, um, often without the word. Um, but where we think about ensembles, um, not just as, uh, you know, we come together and everybody tries to add something to it, but really that this is like, we are making one thing, you know, how to, and acquire, how do we try to blend our voices and move together? And same thing with an orchestra and a lot of ways, you know, every person makes up that specific makeup, you know, you won’t ever have that exact type of group the next year or whatever, like that is the, the tapestry of the time.

And so every person’s part is important and then it creates something that’s even more beautiful than its individual parts. And so it’s, it’s a lot of, um, you know, it’s that concept building of, uh, that, that is, especially in our context, maybe not as intuitive where it’s, where, you know, we think of ourselves pretty individualistically and how do we, how do we, uh, how do we help to, to shift that paradigm a bit toward this, um, togetherness towards this, when we do something that affects the whole kind of a thing. Um, and so that’s why I really like that. Um, yeah, like a good example is, um, there are some times that, like, if I’m trying to maybe speed something up, like we’re getting a little slow in a, in a piece and I’m trying to help move the group along. And, um, there’s one person who’s like immediately following me getting faster, but the whole rest of the group is together, but just a little bit slower. And so often my phrase is, you know, it’s better to be together than to be right. And, and that, that’s hard for some especially certain personalities. Right. I was like, no, I was with you. I was the right one.

And so that’s a good point. You know, that’s usually where I also talk about, you know, let’s look up a little bit more from our music so we can try to stay together, but, but also I would still rather in the end us to have stayed together. And so, um, it’s an interesting, that’s often an interesting sort of learning moment.

Patience:
Um, so Ben, what’s your spiritual resonance of music and how does it influence your meaning-making in life and how you approach life or even just, you know, navigate the ups and downs.

Benjamin:
Yeah. Um, I mean, it’s that, it’s at the core and the foundation of it all, I would say. Um, it’s what, um, it’s some of the first experiences I had was, you know, in, in terms of, um, leading music and, um, the start of some of, um, what I learned about that there can be philosophy behind how we do music and that kind of thing that really happened in the church. Uh, for me, at least, um, around, you know, thinking about what a role of a, of a music leader or worship leader is and how, um, how important that responsibility is of, of, you know, it’s not, we are not the, the, um, the stand in for the people who goes and faces God. We are a, a helpful, um, mechanism to bridge the congregation to God, to help facilitate, um, that experience.

And so that’s, uh, that’s been an important image for me. Um, and so really it’s also, it’s still what I do, whether I say it or not in different contexts in ensemble music, it’s, um, I, I have felt called to, um, bring people together to make music and how that those experiences then can help create, uh, people who better understand others or who are willing to understand others or meet new people or do new things. And, um, and yeah, I think that led to, you know, as I was trying to think about what dissertation research, I think that led to like, hmm, I think there might be something here. And so I think all along the way, my spirituality has been a part of guiding me through this and where I have ended up going and how I’m ended up here at 91����Ƶ and now this program. And so, yeah, it’s, it’s pretty fundamental to what I do.

Transition Music:
[Transition music plays]

Patience:
All right. Um, I don’t have anything else. Is there anything you would like to cover or talk about that we haven’t covered in this hour?

Benjamin:
So, um, I studied a lot of different groups when I was doing literature review and just interest in, um, groups that are using music in ways that are combined with, you know, facilitated dialogue or other, um, peace building efforts. And there are in fact, quite a lot of groups doing this, which is an awesome thing. Um, but the two in particular that I looked at, um, the Jerusalem youth course and polyphony foundation, uh, both specifically, um, bring youth together, uh, to make music and with an element of professionally facilitated dialogue.

So the Jerusalem youth course is based in Jerusalem and they bring on Arab and Jewish youth, Jewish youth together, um, in Jerusalem, so Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. And they sing in a choir, they, during COVID, they’ve made virtual choirs. They, uh, create their own songs and, um, all kinds of things. And then also and, you know, it’s, it’s combined with, um, music classes and those kinds of things, but also they have some, um, professional facilitators on staff who, who go through sessions of dialogue with these youth to help them have conversations, tell stories, tell about themselves and help them understand what is happening in our community in our context, how do we think about this? How do we, how do we have conversations together, um, when they don’t otherwise maybe interact in other situations because they are more separated in their general, uh, communities and contexts. And then, uh, similarly the polyphony foundation is, um, not choral based, but instrumental. So they do, um, orchestra type, uh, activities and things. And they’re a music school in Nazareth, Israel, um, and the founder Nabeel Aboud Ashkar was a part of, uh, early on, um, when the West Eastern Divan orchestra formed. And that was like a, it’s a really quite amazing orchestra, but built up of, of youth from around the world. And especially the middle East who work with a professional concert pianist and conductor, Daniel Barenboim and Edward Said. And so they have amazing conversations and things.

So anyways, Nabeel was a part of that and he’s like, wow, this is amazing. How do I bring it to a level that’s more appropriate for community? Bring it back to my hometown Nazareth, where he’s from and improve the quality of the music education there. So they, they, they worked with the, um, the ministry of education to create a music curriculum that was not very well established, uh, before that to, uh, go into the schools and teach music, music, appreciation, give public concerts, and then help build a conservatory in Nazareth and also another, uh, town, a coastal town of Jafa, and then, uh, have an orchestra for these students to play in. And so then they have these seminars, they call them a scholar in residence seminars, where the students from several different towns come together. So Arabs and Jews oftentimes come together and create music together and, uh, have conversations again, professionally facilitated dialogue. Um, and then they have these concerts after these seminars, uh, with these groups and the, um, the surrounding community can come and see it. And that is such a powerful thing because it’s these youth coming together as, uh, in ways that otherwise doesn’t happen.

Patience:
It doesn’t have to be organic.

Benjamin:
It doesn’t happen organically right. In, in just normal sort of day to day living. And they can see this and witness it. And that is a really powerful thing that they can do, not just in the lives of the youth who are experiencing it, but for those who it’s starting to plant some seeds. Um, so yeah, so those were the two groups that I went to Israel research and have, um, learned quite a bit about,

Patience:
And your exposure to this all began by just going on a cross-cultural and 91����Ƶ cross-cultural to the middle East. Is that how it all began?

Benjamin:
Essentially. Yeah. Um, where, you know, we spent a lot of time trying to learn and hear stories about, about people’s contexts there and, and, uh, and how messy it gets, the more you learn. And, and, um, and so, yeah, I, I had sort of kept this affinity toward, um, wanting to learn more about, uh, how music was used in those contexts and then how people within those contexts are trying to use music to enact positive social change.

And one other group, actually that I learned about through my research, but then also reconnected with just a couple of weeks ago is called heartbeat. And they are an organization similar, uh, in a lot of ways, uh, to Jerusalem youth course where they’re bringing youth together, storytelling, making music, having conversations, and they’re based, um, especially in Jerusalem, but also in the U.S. They’re really trying to, um, develop their program, uh, in the United States. And so, uh, I spoke with them a little while ago that one of their staff members, um, had taken some classes with CJP, center for justice and peacebuilding. And, um, and so she sort of knew about the Shenandoah Valley and her name is Miriam Sycus. Um, and so, yeah, we, we talked with the, also the founder of heartbeat and they’re interested in, in sort of writing some pilot programs in the U.S. Um, doing similar work as what they do in Jerusalem, but just in different contexts.

And, and so we talked and we’re going to be developing a pilot program, this, uh, hopefully starting this summer, but in the area with, um, high school aged youth, uh, to come together in. Cause I mean, wherever, there are people there are conflict and ability for dialogue. And so, um, you know, uh, they they’re interested in, in not just staying in Jerusalem, but, uh, that, so we’re really excited about that opportunity to, um, pilot, a program here as well, to, to collaborate in that program.

Patience:
So what is musical empathy?

Benjamin:
Yeah. Musical empathy, uh, is, is quite related to general empathy. Um, and it has similar sort of the two sides of a coin that musical empathy, um, you know, the it’s, it’s the understanding of the affective and cognitive components, uh, to empathy, but they’re perceived through the music through the sonic quality of the music. And so this is evidenced through the feature, the feature of music where someone can understand it to be, you know, happy sounding or sad or triumphant. And so music can tap into, uh, parts of the brain that mirror those emotions, and it can even release, uh, dopamine, you know, one of those pleasure hormones, um, and aid in the general empathic response.

And so, yeah, it has this, this, the contagious side, the emotional contagion component, as well as the intellectual, um, side where studies even show that, um, it had two groups of children, um, that played games. One was a control group without musical interaction in those games. And one was, um, with musical interaction and the group with musical interaction displayed evidence through their, um, metrics and evaluation of greater emotional empathy, than the control group. Um, and, uh, there’s a quote that I love from, uh, Johann Galton, uh, that says good art is like good peace, always challenging art and peace are both located in the tension between emotions and intellect. And, and he says, this is a false dichotomy. Art like peace has to overcome such false dichotomies by speaking both to the heart and to the brain, to the compassion of the heart and constructions of the brain. And maybe that’s where art and peace really find each other and interconnect most deeply, they both address both human faculties, end quote.

Patience:
Okay. Thank you so much, Ben. This has been such a joy. Thank you for being here and for making the time. It’s great.

Benjamin:
Thank you for the honor and privilege of, of being a part of this it’s it was a lot of fun. It was have a good morning. Alrighty. You as well. All right, bye bye. Bye

Patience:
Dr. Benjamin Bergey’s the author of music and hospitality creating a culture of welcome through music. An article in leader magazine summer 2020. He’s also author of building peace through music, article 11 in the Gill ism review volume four, number two in the fall of 2018. He is also the author of transforming conflict about music also in leader magazine in the summer of 2018. And finally, before we close, some of you may remember that we here at CJP had to postpone our plan 25th anniversary celebrations last summer, due to the COVID pandemic. We invite you to join us to our virtual 25 plus one celebrations on June 4th, fifth, and sixth, Benjamin Bergey will prepare the music for the weekend’s events for more details on all the events and how to register. Please go to emu.edu/cjp/anniversary. We hope you can join us.

Outro music:
[Outro music begins and fades to background]

Patience:
All the music you hear on this podcast has been composed by the one and only Luke Mullet. Our audio mixing engineer extratrordinair is Steven Angelo, and I’m the podcast executive producer, audio recording engineer editor, and host patients come out. As you are able, please remember to subscribe, rate and review this podcast so that other peacebuilders may find it. We’ll be back with a new episode in two weeks. Thanks so much for listening and join us again next time.

Outro music:
[Outro music resumes and plays till end].

Talibah Aquil MA ’19 (conflict transformation) talks about her first journey to her ancestral home, Ghana; the captivating performance art capstone that was borne of that experience; and her calling as a bridge between the North American and African continents. 

Aquil first decided to travel to Ghana after research through ancestry.com revealed that she had more ancestors from there than any other African country. For her capstone project to her graduate studies at the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding, she spent three weeks there, interviewing Black Americans and others of the African diaspora who had returned to their homeland about how those experiences shaped their identities. 

Aquil used those stories to create “Ghana, Remember Me,” a poetry, dance, and music performance that speaks on healing historical trauma within the African diaspora community. The project brought together her experiences and a diverse skill set: A graduate of Howard University with a BA in musical theater, Aquil toured with a professional dance troupe after college.

Performing “Ghana, Remember Me” “brought to my attention how many people really need spaces to talk about identity … and the complexities of it,” she said. 

That work has helped Aquil face the present as well as her history. 

“Something about me connecting to the root of my identity gave me such power that when I came back to the States, it was almost like I was prepared to endure all of the racial chaos that was happening in America, because I knew where I came from,” she said. “I saw the power of my people and it gave me strength. It gave me strength. It didn’t take away the pain, but it gave me strength to endure.”

She recalled a feeling of homecoming, even on her first trip to Ghana. 

“Your cells remember … the body knows,” Aquil said. 

Aquil moved to Ghana last year, and lives in the capital city of Accra. 

“I knew in my spirit that I was supposed to be in Ghana and, again – not knowing the puzzle pieces, just like my journey at CJP – I knew that I was supposed to be here. And listening to that intuition, I’m so grateful because it has been wonderful,” she said.

Aquil is now a lecturer at CJP, where she introduced a course titled “Re-imagining Identity” that examines the intersections of identity, storytelling, dignity, and the arts. In that same vein of re-imagination, she is also developing an organization called “We Are Magic.”

“The goal is to bring diaspora people of color to Ghana – to connect, to history, to identity, and to heal from historical trauma,” Aquil explained. “I want to do this at a little to no cost for them. I want to build a place where folks can stay and it be a resting place, a restorative place in Ghana.”

Guest

Talibah Aquil

Talibah Atiya-Najee Aquil��has a rich and varied background using the arts as a vehicle for social change. She graduated from Howard University with a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Musical Theatre and earned her Masters in Conflict Transformation at The Center for Justice and Peacebuilding at 91����Ƶ in Harrisonburg, Virginia. Whether in performances, community organizing, or teaching and facilitating, Talibah cultivates spaces for trauma healing and transforming conflicts that exist both within self and within communities. Ms Aquil has facilitated Restorative Justice Circle Practices centered around racial healing and presented her masters thesis as an arts-based independent research project�� “Ghana, Remember Me,” which uses poetry, dance and music to speak to healing historical trauma within the African Diaspora community. Talibah is also an adjunct professor at The Center for Justice and Peacebuilding at 91����Ƶ, where she created a course entitled��“Re-imagining Identity” that examines the intersections of identity, story-telling, dignity, and the arts; in this course she created safe spaces for student-teachers to explore the complexities of identity as it relates to oneself and others. Ms. Aquil currently lives in Accra, Ghana where she co-created “We Are Magic,” an organization focused on creating healing tours for people of the diaspora who wish to travel to Ghana.

Transcript

Talibah:
So the “Year Of Return” was created in Ghana to establish, um, and bring attention and mindfulness to the 400 year anniversary since the first enslaved African was taken from Ghana. Um, and so the idea was to bring diasporans back to Ghana, right? How do we connect and build relationship?

Theme music:
[Theme music begins and fades to background]

Patience:
Hi everybody, happy Wednesday to you! Welcome back to Peacebuilder, a Conflict Transformation podcast by the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding. My name is Patience Kamau and our guest this episode is:

Talibah:
Talibah Atiya-Najee Aquil, a former graduate of the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding; and I am currently a lecturer at CJP.

Patience:
Talibah Atiya-Najee Aquil has a rich and varied background using the arts as a vehicle for social change. She graduated from Howard University with a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Musical Theatre and earned her Masters degree in Conflict Transformation here at CJP at 91����Ƶ. Whether in performances, community organizing, or teaching and facilitating, Talibah cultivates spaces for trauma healing and transforming conflicts that exist both within self and within communities. Ms. Aquil has facilitated Restorative Justice Circle Practices centered around racial healing and presented her masters thesis as an arts-based independent research project “Ghana, Remember Me,” which uses poetry, dance and music to speak to healing historical trauma within the African Diaspora community.

Talibah is also an adjunct professor here at The Center for Justice and Peacebuilding , where she created a course entitled “Re-imagining Identity” that examines the intersections of identity, story-telling, dignity, and the arts; in this course she created safe spaces for student-teachers to explore the complexities of identity as it relates to oneself and others. Ms. Aquil currently lives in Accra, Ghana where she co-created “We Are Magic,” an organization focused on creating healing tours for people of the diaspora who wish to travel to Ghana.

Theme music:
[Theme music fades back in and plays till end]

Patience:
What is your journey? What was your journey to 91����Ƶ, to CJP, which is nested within 91����Ƶ? How would you describe that?

Talibah:
So, if I had to describe my journey to CJP, I would use two words. So the first word will be unexpected. Um, and my second word will be purposed. And what I mean by that, I actually grew up in a Mennonite church in Bronx, New York called King of Glory Tabernacle. So I grew up, um, predominantly in a Mennonite community. And so I heard a lot about Eastern Mennonite university. In fact, when I was 16, I went to, um, the Mennonite world conference in Zimbabwe with, um, 91����Ƶ. Um, but I never had a desire to attend, um, 91����Ƶ and it wasn’t until I was I’ll never. Okay. So I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Rwanda, and I remember I made a vision board and one of the things on my vision board was grad school. And I was like this no way I really want to go to grad school.

Talibah:
Well, let me just put this up here because I feel like I’m supposed to right? never forget the grad school kept falling off of the collage. And I was like, Lord, what are you trying to tell me? And so by the end of my two year service, I just got this fire to attend grad school. And I was looking for programs abroad actually that, um, kind of share the intersections of healing and the arts, and CJP kept popping up. And I have no idea why, but something in my spirit knew that I was supposed to apply to CJP and the rest is history. And so my journey at CJP, honestly, even from the first day, I did not know why I was there, but I knew I was supposed to be. So, yeah.

Patience:
And when did you graduate from CJP?

Talibah:
I graduated in 2019

Patience:
Did you eventually make sense of why you were there, even though you were feeling, you don’t know why you’re there, but you’re supposed to be, did that ever come together for you in your two years of residency there?

Talibah:
Yeah. Um, definitely. I, my time at CJP was a journey. I feel like I was like finding my voice. I was finding purpose. I was trying to figure out why I was even in the program. And it really was around graduation where I realized all the puzzle pieces really of my life came together at CJP.

Patience:
What’d you mean by that?

Talibah:
So I feel like I’ve always been a person who was sensitive. Right. I was always been sensitive. I always knew I cared about trauma, but I didn’t have language for it. Right. And so I feel like all the things that made me Talibah, I discovered language for it at CJP. I discovered that there was a place for it in the world at CJP, um, found community of other folks who believe that movement was, was just as important as academia and like connecting to the body. And it became something where I knew like, okay, I can actually bring my gifts and parts of myself to the world and it be valued. And so I really would say my time at CJP in hindsight, even now I’m so grateful for the experience, because I feel like I found my voice and I found myself. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Patience:
And you had just graduated from, uh, your undergraduate degree was from… where was it from? I keep wanting to say Howard.

Talibah:
It was. I graduated from Howard University in ’09. I was a musical theater major. So performing arts.

Patience:
Yeah. How was that experience of you attending an HBCU?

Talibah:
Oh, amazing, amazing. Oh, Patience. It was really the, some of the best years of my life, honestly, especially, um, I’m trying to find the language to it’s something about being in space, um, with like-minded and just beautiful black, powerful souls. Um, that really just inspires, especially when you’re coming out of high school, you’re on your own. You’re finding yourself and just being in that space really was it was magical. It’s magical. And even now those relationships that will cultivate it during my time at Howard, I, I still have that. And a lot of them, the work that I’m doing now, a lot of it is, is because I had those partnerships and relationships with people from Howard university. So,

Patience:
So right now, as we speak, you are in Ghana. Which city are you speaking from right now? Akra?

Talibah:
Yes. I’m, I’m based in Akra right now.

Patience:
Tell us about that. How did that come to be? Um, it’s yeah, it’s a fabulous story. Can you share it with our listeners?

Talibah:
Yes, absolutely. So for my practicum project, for CJP, I decided that I wanted to travel to Ghana. I had just did ancestry.com, which was both exciting and traumatizing at the same time. And I discovered that most of my African ancestry came from Ghana. And so I wanted to learn and connect. And re-imagine my identity outside of the confinements of the U.S. Right. I wanted to travel to Ghana on my own, um, and learn about my history, learn about my identity. Um, and it was the same semester. I took research class with Roxy and I learned that, um, research could also look like putting on a show. It can also, you can also encourage your readers to feel the research, right. And that just was such an exciting thing for me. And so I decided to go to Ghana and I interviewed, um, other black Americans or diasporan who moved to Ghana and how that shaped their identity.

Talibah:
Um, and then I came back and I put together a show called Ghana Remember Me that, um, took place, um, at 91����Ƶ and their main stage theater. And it just really, really became bigger than anything I could imagine. And it just really reminded me, um, it brought to my attention how many people really need spaces to talk about identity, um, and safe spaces to talk about identity in it and the complexities of it. Um, and so Ghana was so transformative for me, Patience, during this time of 2020 when depression and anxiety, and so many emotions, um, was very present for me. And I know countless other people, I wanted to turn home. And so I knew in my spirit that I was supposed to be in Ghana and again, not knowing the puzzle pieces, just like my, my journey at CJP. I knew, um, that I was supposed to be here and, and listening to that intuition, I’m so grateful because it has been wonderful.

Patience:
Oh, um, talk more about Ghana Remember Me. Um, I have watched it at least twice. I’m guessing, I’m thinking maybe three times. Can you tell our listeners about what Ghana Remember Me is if you can take us through the process of, uh, creating it, writing it and putting it all together and the impact that you just hinted at that it became bigger than you. What was all that? Yeah. How did that all transpire for you?

Talibah:
Um, so I traveled to Ghana. I was in Ghana for three weeks. I’d never been to Ghana. I only knew one person, um, in Ghana at the time when I decided to travel and I literally came to Ghana, I had no idea it was the year of return. So the year of return was created in Ghana to establish, um, and bring attention and mindfulness to the 400 year anniversary since the first enslaved African was taken from Ghana. Um, and so the idea was to bring diasporans back to Ghana, right? How do we connect and build relationship? And so I had no idea I was going to kind of during that time. So it just really was the best time. And I was able to connect with a lot of African-Americans who moved to Ghana and I interviewed them. And, um, it really was a time of just, okay, this is what I would associate it with.

Talibah:
So there’s something about being Christian, right. And, and I know the Christian walk and your relationship with God. It, it, it, it, it changes in seasons right. Sometimes when you feel close to God, as sometimes when you feel far away, you need to hear his voice. And I know that I’m my best self when I remember who I belonged to what kind of remember who my father is, when I remember that I’m a child of God, there’s some confidence and ower that I walked with. Right. And so I would compare my time in Ghana to that feeling. It was l something about me connecting to the root of my identity that gave me such power Patience, that when I came back to the States, it was almost like I was prepared to endure all of the racial chaos that was happening in America, because I knew where I came from.

Talibah:
And I saw the power of my people, and it gave me strength. It gave me strength. It didn’t take away the pain gave me strength to endure. And so if I had to sum up my time in Ghana, that’s what I would, that’s what I would say. It was restorative. It was empowering. Um, and again, folks who did not have, um, the experience of traveling to Ghana with me, I feel like they felt that in Ghana Remember Me and it empowered them to go on a journey of talking about identity. Um, and so basically to me, so long story short, Ghana Remember Me was comprised of 12 interviews. Um, I recorded interviews, video recorded, voice recorded. I came back to the States. I listened to every video, every recording and I found themes. And so my goal was to listen to what other folks said, but also to use my experience and what I took from the experience as well. Um, and so I have a really close sister of mine named Simili Jamia Koji, who lives in Kenya. And her and I shared a very similar experience of, of being a bridge between two worlds, right. Going between the continent and America and, and sharing the experience. And so, um, some of her poetry was the through line of Ghana Remember Me. And, and I basically took all of it together and, and created a show using my theories of change and speaking from the heart.

Patience:
What is it to be a bridge between the two, you know, between the African continent and the North American continent?

Talibah:
It is really a calling Patience. It’s really a calling. Um, it is hard, it’s hard. Um, but, um, but I’m grateful for the calling. I think a part of my passion, one of my biggest passions, and it was also a part of my theories of change. Like, how do I bring, or how do we bring, cause it’s already a community of people. How do we bring those of us who were taken from the continent? And those of us who were born on the continent together, what does it look like to decolonize our relationship, right? What is it realized to, what does it look like to remember that we are one? Um, so that it has been 400 plus years of undoing that relationship and it’s going to take time to bridge it back together. And so, um, I think also honoring that it is a privilege to be able to go to the continent. It is expensive to travel, right. And so, what is it also look like to become a bridge for folks, specifically people of color, um, to provide access back to the continent because that in itself is not easy.

Patience:
Um, as you were describing, um, you’re going there and just finding your roots, just the power of finding your roots and just feeling a sense of being at home. And it infuses a sense of confidence in you. I recognize that very much so because when I go home, when I go back home to Kenya, there is something that myself just recognize as, Oh, I am home. And it’s in the smell in the air, you know, the smoke from all the exterior kitchens and the sounds and the, you know, the noise and the hooting of the cars all over the place in the cities. And this s something that is recognizable by the cells in a way that is inexplainable or even articulable to anyone else. But I see you shaking your head because you recognize it very, very empowering.

Talibah:
Just adding to that. It’s also connecting to what you just said. I’ve never even been to Ghana, but I still had that feeling, right.

Patience:
Because your cells remember your ancestors were stolen from there, from there.

Talibah:
And how powerful it is that our body knows. And so I always tell people, because I’m considered a foreigner here, folks call me a foreigner. And I say, no, I’m relearning because I already know this stuff. We already know this stuff, but we’re relearning and undoing systems and structures that were intentionally created to help us forget. And that yes.

Patience:
Make us to make people forget.

Talibah:
Yes.

Patience:
It wasn’t even like a helping. It just was like, this was very intentional. And it was a stripping of humanity obviously to justify whatever means that they needed to get to…

Talibah:
Yeah.

Transition music:
[Transition music plays]

Patience:
Let’s talk about the power of dreaming and reimagining our imagination. What is that to you.

Talibah:
Yes, I am so passionate about this and this season. And I first want to start off by thanking, um, Johannah Turner and Tim Seidel for even introducing this concept and foundations to when I was a student, um, the power of dreaming. And I think what encouraged me to even want to talk about this is 2020, the year 2020 was a year full of just… for me. It was a year of realizing all the things that I was a part of that just kind of debilitating my dreaming, I felt stuck. Um, there was confusion and it was like, I couldn’t even think of the things that made me happy. Right. And when I gave myself permission, right, when I, when I was able to sit in that stillness and really be intentional, um, about what are the things that I feel passionate about and dreaming, Ghana kept showing up.

And so I think for me, it was a year of saying, I no longer want to participate in this capitalistic society. And that seems huge. And I don’t know exactly how to do it, but I know I’m going to try because it’s not making me happy. And I’m going to dream and reimagine a world where I’m living in ease and I’m living in purpose and giving myself permission to do so. Um, and I just feel led to talk about that today because I know so many people had similar realizations and so many people have so many dreams laying dormant inside because the parameters of our worlds comment world and reality doesn’t seem like it gives us permission to follow those dreams. Right? Something happens. The cells become activated similar to how, when we go, something happens to yourselves. When you start dreaming and doing work that feels life giving, you know, and it doesn’t just transform you, it transforms systems and transforms society. It transforms generations to come, right.

When you think about Martin Luther King speech, I have a dream, right? Literally we are sitting here. We are the manifestation of his dreams because he was able to dream and reimagine a society outside of the parameters of his life, his current being. Right. And so what is it look like to take that speech that we referenced every January, right? What does it look like to take that and apply it to our lives and realize it’s possible.

Patience:
And live it. As, as you were saying that I am reminded not too long ago, I was watching, um, Henry Louis Gates presentation. It’s a, it’s a show, a new one on PBS called the black church. And they were talking obviously about the history of the black church and how it began, obviously from the moment, you know, 400 years, 400 plus years ago from when the first enslaved people landed here. But one part is something that I learned about that speech about Martin Luther King’s I have a dream speech was that it was impromptu on that day that he gave it up on those stairs. Mahalia Jackson reminded him he’s, you know, apparently she said, tell them about the dream Martin, tell them about the dream.

But the background of that is that the origin of that thought was actually Prithia Hall, who was a woman who was praying. Apparently it was an event in Georgia and she was praying and her prayer had the cadence and the repeat repetition, the poetic repetition of I have a dream and then she would name it. I have a dream, this, and then she would name it and I have a dream about this, and then she would name it. But you’re talking about, you know, just imagining something outside of what was actually the life in the moment. And apparently, uh, she drove him away to the airport or something like that. He asked, can I use that? You know, he was inspired by that. That’s where he got that inspiration from Prithia Hall. And then he started making sermons about that and he would preach about them. And Mahalia Jackson had heard about that. And so especially reminded him on that day when they were marching on, on Washington. And that’s where I came from background. Wow. Kudos to Prithia Hall.

Talibah:
Yes, absolutely.

Patience:
So what is your dream going forward? What, what is your dream? What are you dreaming that is beyond you? That is probably going to benefit generations to come. What is it that you hope for?

Talibah:
I have a few dreams happening right now. One, a personal dream for myself is to continue to create a life for myself full of ease.

Patience:
What does that mean?

Talibah:
Um, I feel like, I think a lot of times, and I, there was silence because I wanted to correct myself and then I was like, no, don’t correct yourself. I never give, or I haven’t in the past given myself permission to rest and to live in ease because I associated it with, um, laziness and, um, not being productive. Right. And so for me, a life of ease, um, looks like doing work. That that is life-giving, um, that is done on my own time. That gives space for rest. That gives space for building relationships and community. Um, and that also invites other people to come into the space, to use their gifts.

So I don’t feel overwhelmed. That’s what ease looks like for me. And it’s not, I’ve never been a person that, that is driven by money, but I realized because I’ve had bills and had to survive, I shifted from a person who wants to be led by service to a person who is literally led to, uh, as it relates to survival. And I no longer want to survive. I want to thrive. I don’t want to survive. I want to thrive. And I wish that for every person and speaking as a person, as a black woman, I felt like a lot of my life has been connected to pain, connected in survival connected in so much. And I, and I no longer want that narrative. I no longer want that narrative, so dropping it. Yes. Um, and then I guess that also is attached to my collective dreaming for everyone.

But I also, as we talk about a bridge, um, being in Ghana, um, I am working on an organization or a co-founder of an organization called we are magic. Um, and it’s in the works, it’s at the beginning stages, but again, I’m dreaming big and I’m speaking it and manifested it into existence. But the goal is to bring diasporans, people of color, for Ghana to connect to history, to connect, to identity and to heal from historical trauma. I want to do this at little to no cost for them. Um, I want to build a place where folks can stay and it be a resting place, a restorative place in Ghana. Um, and so that’s the goal we are magic. Um, and so you’re hearing it now here first, I’m just excited to see how the dream will continue to grow and even surprise me. Um,

Patience:
So basically you want to create a large kind of situation that allows people, black people in the diaspora who wants to go back to Ghana and rest can come and spend time there. And it depends on so little to no cost. What does that mean for you? So that

Talibah:
Little to no cost. So even if that means we cover your flight, even if that means you cover your flight, but you know, that housing is free. Um, it’s also not just the living situation, but it’s also healing tours. So Ghana, um, really has a rich, um, historical, um, history. And so the goal is also to travel to different places. We have the slave castle Dungeons where a lot of our history, um, took place. There’s also the history that happened before we were even enslaved. That’s important. I think that’s a big thing. A lot of times African-Americans I aspirants our history always begins with slavery.

So what does it look like to learn the history pre slavery to add to the story? So I think that is a big part. And then what does it look like to have a space to connect with those who are from the continent and have a space of healing, a space of conversation, a space of dialogue. So all of those things are, are, are, um, attached to, we are magic. It’s not just a place of rest and lodging, but it’s also a tour, a healing tour of, of the imagining and reconnecting to identity.

Patience:
I’m glad to hear you say that. It’s also part of that will also be a learning about what life was before slavery became such an all-consuming part of the continent, because it was actually, it’s actually a really short history of the continent of Africa. It’s a really, really short by comparison. The continent was thriving way before the Portuguese showed up and had this idea about, um, exporting well and, and, you know, it gets very complicated because actually, um, elite Africans were involved in creating this culture of selling people, but it was, yeah, it gets very complicated.

Uh, but it is lovely for people to learn this because it is how a lot of tribes within the African continent dealt with one another, when they would conquer one another, they would enslave one another. Um, and so that when the white, especially the Portuguese showed up, um, then they started making a lot of money by saying, okay, here we can sell you these people. And then it became an completely unwieldy creature that just swallowed up the whole continent. So that’s an important history for people to understand that it was a profoundly developed and thriving continent before it was made into this caricature that people think of today. I’m very passionate about that.

Talibah:
Yes. Patience. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Patience:
The deep, deep history we are told that Christianity was brought by the white people. Oh no, no, no. Christianity was in Ethiopia way before Europeans understood what Christianity was about.

Talibah:
Yes, yes.

Patience:
Anyway, I will get off this soapbox now and let you talk about Afrofuturism. What is Afrofuturism?

Talibah:
Afrofuturism. Okay. So I was first introduced to Afrofuturism when I saw the black Panther, I was in love with the film and I really didn’t know why I connected to it. So, and so I decided to write one of my blogs for foundations two, on the black Panther and Dr. Joanna Turner introduced the term Afrofuturism, um, to me and basically Afrofuturism, um, intersects, um, science fiction technology and ancient African mythologies.

So with the intersections of all of those things, I think what really spoke to my heart and why I connect Afrofuturism to dreaming is because as a black people, as, as a black people who experienced, um, oppression and slavery, one of the only things we had was hope, one of the only things we had was re-imagining and, um, re-imagining a life outside of the life that we lived in. Right. And so Afrofuturism gives us permission and provides a space for us to re-imagine our identities. It’s almost like dreaming of a world that looks totally different. I mean, when you look at, um, the black Panther and you look at, um, the, I don’t even want to call them costumes because the costume designer drew from actual, um, countries on the continent.

So I wouldn’t even go as far to say costumes, but that’s what Afrofuturism is. It’s pulling from the past, pulling from something that’s already there. And then re-imagining a whole different, um, thing. Right. And so when I think of Afrofuturism, I even talked about that. It was one of the topics in the class that I spoke. I had taught with, um, co-taught with Barry Hart re-imagining identity. It was such a big part of it because it’s like, how do we draw from Afrofuturism? Right. What is that? What does it look like to, to recreate right. Reimagine, rethink, you know, so, yeah. Yeah.

Patience:
And I just want to mention here, you mentioned, uh, Roxy being in a class that was taught by Roxy a research class, and that’s the Roxy Allen Kyoko. Um, I just wanted to insert that, but talk about this class that you talked with, uh, Dr. Barry Hart, uh, what was that about? How did it go? How did it come to be? Yeah. How did it, yeah. Tell us about it.

Talibah:
Um, I’m so grateful for that opportunity and experience to, um, teach that class with, um, Barry. It was, it was the first class I ever taught at CJP. I had just graduated and Ghana Remember Me. I don’t even want to say it was birth from Ghana. Remember me, but I just know that there was so the, the talk back after Ghana Remember Me, the conversations that emerged around identity and trauma and collective healing, um, felt really, really needed. And so Barry and I, um, connected, he was already teaching a class similar to the same, um, topic of identity and, and, um, healing, historical trauma. And so we kind of came together and created, um, this class re-imagining identity. Um, and in the class we spoke about, um, Afrofuturism. It was a very, it was, it was an untraditional class. I would say. I think we were very intentional about creating the space.

Talibah:
We in turn, I remember sometimes we brought pillows and we had snacks and music and certain things just to also create a space where folks felt comfortable to even talk about identity. Right? CJP I will say one of the biggest things that I’ve taken from CJP is we’re talking about lived experience, right? Conflict and violence and restorative justice. Those are things that are lived experiences. And so you have to hold them with such care, even in the classroom space. Right? Because even the things that we talk about and learn about in the systems and skills and tools, our lived experiences of students in the class, right. And it’s around identity, everything is identity, everything is identity, everything. And so re-imagining identity. It was like, okay, who are you now? Who are you? What has the world proclaimed you to be? What narratives have the world told you that you are? And then what parts of your identity do you want to reimagine and recreate and dream of? And that was felt to me, like the premise of the class, who are you now? What are some of the things the world says you are? And then what do you want to reimagine in the future looking forward.

Patience:
So you’re basically asking people to name themselves outside of what the world has named them, you know, because the world puts on us an identity label, then we can name our…

Talibah:
Label.

Patience:
Exactly. Then, but we can name ourselves as to how we feel and see ourselves and how we move in this world. So what sort of, do you have any specific examples of maybe any, very moving or stand out conversation that happened in that class about re-imagining identity that you would be able to share with us?

Talibah:
I pause because a lot of it was really, really personal. Um, and so I’m mindful of that, but I will speak of for myself, why I even wanted to go to Ghana in the first place, because I was overwhelmed by the labels that America placed on me, that I was minority. Right. Um, that I was less than, um, and I was tired of seeing the image of my, my black brothers and sisters murdered. Um, and so that narrative of feeling like I am a part of an identity that is disempowered, I needed to reimagine a new identity for myself. Right. And so that’s what Ghana, so speaking for myself, I feel like that. Um, yeah.

Patience:
Yeah. Oh, how did it change you? How did the class change you? How is Ghana changing you?

Talibah:
That’s a really good question. Um, and I don’t even know if I have the words, to be honest with you, Patience, it’s it’s, it’s a feeling I don’t, I’m not the same woman. I was even when the class even came. I feel like we talk about like professors and lecturers and students, but honestly the whole space is a learning space. We’re all learning from each other, right? Like when we talk about power, like I learnt so much from those who took the class.

Um, and I still, I think I was will share this. I still get messages from people who took the class, who constantly shared things that they learned from the class. Um, and that feels so amazing to learn. And to know that the learning is continuous and it literally just planted a seed, it planted a seed, as an African proverb that goes each one, teach one. And so the goal is you build these relationships with people that you come in contact with, and you just hope that those seeds planted will then go to the next person and go to the next person. And eventually you’ll have a whole forest. Right?

Patience:
Yeah, of course. Hm.

Transition music:
[Transition music plays]

Patience:
You mentioned earlier about being a bridge and that being a calling, which sounds to me very spiritual, what is the spiritual resonance of, um, taking people or bringing people to Ghana and taking them on these healing tours? What is the spiritual resonance for you? How does this feed your soul?

Talibah:
Hm. Um, that’s such a deep question and I’m going to answer it very honestly. Um, like I shared, I, I grew up Mennonite, um, for a large portion of my life and I think learning all, so many things, all the amazing things I learned from CJP, I’ve also learnt, um, how to ask questions and also decolonize my faith. Right. And I only share that because coming to Ghana, when I first came to Ghana, I would share about my faith. And so many people shared, um, and spoke about how Christianity too played a large part in the slave trade. Right. And I share that because just that awakening and that, that, that, um, that reminder for me, um, I went on a journey and I still am on a journey of like building my personal relationship with God. Right. Um, and undoing and relearning and decolonizing my thoughts around other spiritual practices.

And so I share this why I feel like this answers your question, is I, my ancestors and feeling even confident to name this, because I feel like before I wouldn’t have named that, I spent time talking to God and my ancestors. Right. I wouldn’t have named that cause I didn’t feel comfortable, but for me, it’s important to share. Like I know that those who came before me are a source of spiritual, um, um, um, spiritual guidance for me as well. And so I feel like I’m being led by God and I’m being led by my ancestors. Um, and it just, there’s a knowing.

So Patience like this is the thing about dreaming, like you dream. And sometimes you don’t even know what the next staircase looks like. Right. But you just know that this is the dream and I’m going to just keep putting one foot in front of the other and trust the process. Right? So I’m in a season of trusting God, trusting my ancestors, trusting myself in that knowing, and just committing to that dream, committing to that dream. And so it is a spiritual practice. Absolutely. Um, yeah. Yeah. And it’s complicated and it’s difficult conversation and I think it’s conversations and more spaces, um, needs to be held around. What does it look like to talk about these heavy topics? Right. What does it look like to talk about spirituality and to talk about the role of the church and to talk about God and your personal faith, like spaces need to be created for these conversations of healing.

Patience:
Is that happening currently as we speak?

Talibah:
No, I think I’m more so having my own process and then writing things down. Um, because along with the dreaming, it’s also timing too. Right. So I think I’m just taking note and then hopefully when I feel led or if I learn of other spaces where I am, where these conversations being had, I’m looking forward to participating in them.

Patience:
Okay. Okay. Nothing else is coming to mind. Thank you so much Talibah for taking the time to talk about this. Um, the importance…for highlighting the importance of dreaming, the power of dreaming and reimagining our lives in a different way. Have a good afternoon in Accra.

Outro music:
[Outro music begins to play and fades to background]

Patience:
All the music you hear on this podcast has been composed by the one and only Luke Mullet audio mixing engineer. Extraordinary is Steven Angelo. And I’m the podcast executive producer, audio recording, engineer, editor, and host patients come out. As you are able, please remember to subscribe, rate and review this podcast so that other peacebuilders may find it. We’ll be back with a new episode in two weeks. Thanks so much for listening and join us again next time.

[Outro music resumes and plays till end]

In this conversation, Matt Tibbles shares moving personal stories that actualize both his learning journey and the important peacebuilding ideas he studies, practices and teaches – drawing from experiences as a youth pastor and a juvenile detention officer, in education and prevention for a domestic violence and sexual assault shelter, and from among his students in classrooms at 91����Ƶ.

A 2018 graduate of 91����Ƶ’s , Tibbles is an organizational development and conflict transformation professional with experience working in and with multi-ethnic for-profit businesses, higher education, nonprofit organizations, and indigenous tribes. He balances teaching at 91����Ƶ with consultancy work among organizations and school districts, focusing on co-creating dignity and honoring trauma-informed and restorative organizational cultures. 

Tibbles brings these experiences into the courses he teaches to undergraduates in the peacebuilding and development program and the sociology program. He also teaches graduate courses at CJP. 

Tibbles begins by describing a pivotal experience of de-escalating conflict while working as a youth pastor in the Pacific Northwest. Witnessing the effect of trauma on the child involved pushed him to explore the concept more fully in the youth group he worked with at the church. Later in Alaska, he worked at a juvenile detention facility where he encountered trauma-informed care and practices. Night shifts there allowed for deeper exploration of restorative justice, especially through webinars offered by the  and readings of The Little Book of Restorative Justice by Howard Zehr (Good Books, 2002).

There, Tibbles began to ask different and probing questions about the behavior of the teens he worked with: One guiding question was “In what reality does this behavior make sense?” Viewing those behaviors through a trauma lens, as responses to trauma, helped him and others he worked with see how daily protocols and practices could raise fear and anxiety. For example, walking directly behind a teen in transition between activities triggered a stress reaction, but shifting slightly into her peripheral vision was a much less threatening position. 

While our default approach might be “blaming and judging,” asking questions about why behavior might be happening “allowed us to see a much bigger, broader picture of what was going on,” Tibbles said.

After studies at CJP, he’s worked to integrate restorative justice and trauma-informed pedagogy within the larger university community with a ripple effect as students across the disciplines see the potential and benefits to bring those principles into various settings.

“When we’re able to create trauma-informed and resilient systems, my hope is, and I’m seeing it a little bit from students that have graduated, or even students that have transferred out of 91����Ƶ into another university or college, is that they’re taking these experiences of being trauma-informed and resilient into their own communities into wherever they’re going,” he said. “And they’re beginning, in small ways, to shift systems that haven’t been trauma informed, or, or haven’t focused on resilience into systems that are beginning to explore just even a little bit of what that means and how it [can be] transformative.”

Guest

Matthew Tibbles

Matt Tibbles is an organizational development and conflict transformation professional with experience working in multi-ethnic for-profit businesses, higher education, non-profit organizations, and indigenous tribes in developing and implementing organizational development strategies with a specialization in trauma-informed and resilient-based strategies/practices.�� He currently serves as an instructor at 91����Ƶ in the Peacebuilding & Development Program, Sociology Program, and the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding.�� He also consults with organizations and school districts in co-creating dignity honoring trauma-informed and restorative organizational cultures.��
��
He lives in Harrisonburg, VA with his family.�� He is a husband to Julie Tibbles and a father to Reese and Kellyn Tibbles.�� He enjoys woodworking, soccer, basketball, and living a contemplative Christian faith.

Transcript

Matt:
You know, “grave-shifts” are great for relaxing and, and that kind of stuff, because most of the time the juveniles were sleeping, and so, a lot of our duties were to, you know, get the detention facility ready for the next day, make sure all the laundry was done and ready to go for when the, uh, when the juveniles woke up and then we would get them up. You know, we were the smiling face, uh, getting them up in the morning. And, and so, uh, you know, the hours of two, three, four or five o’clock in the morning, uh, it seemed to drag a little bit, but it was great because, uh, we had a resource shelf that we could, uh, get books from. And the little book on restorative justice was on there.

Theme music:
[Theme music plays and fades into background]

patience:
Hi everybody happy Wednesday to you. Welcome back to peacebuilder, a conflict transformation podcast by The Center for Justice and Peacebuilding. My name is patience kamau, and our guest this episode is…

Matt:
Matt Tibbles, instructor at Eastern Mennonite university.

patience:
Matt Tibbles is an organizational development and conflict transformation professional with experience working in multi-ethnic for-profit businesses, higher education, non-profit organizations, and indigenous tribes in developing and implementing organizational development strategies with a specialization in trauma-informed and resilient-based strategies/practices. He currently serves as an instructor here at 91����Ƶ in the Peacebuilding & Development Program, Sociology Program, and the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding. He also consults with organizations and school districts in co-creating dignity honoring trauma-informed and restorative organizational cultures.

He lives in Harrisonburg, Va. with his family. He is a husband to Julie Tibbles and a father to Reese and Kellyn Tibbles. He enjoys woodworking, soccer, basketball, and living a contemplative Christian faith.

Theme music:
[Theme music resumes and plays till end]

patience:
So Matt, we are here today to talk about trauma informed classrooms, but before we do that, do you mind just talking about the journey from being youth pastor, um, in the Pacific Northwest and Alaska to CJP, how did that all come together?

Matt:
The story that I want to start out with was I got a phone call one night, uh, in the early two thousands. It was from a kid that was in my youth group, uh, and he’s frantic on the phone. Uh, he’s kind of scattered all over the place, telling me all kinds of things. And in the background I hear his mother, uh, screaming and yelling. I hear his father; they were divorced. Uh, I hear his father screaming and yelling, and then I hear this other voice in the background too, trying to calm everybody down. And, and he’s like, Matt, can you get over here right now? I’m like, sure, I’d be glad to come over here. So I get in my vehicle rush over to, uh, to where his dad’s apartment was. Uh, and I drive up and of course I see, uh, the police car, uh, with the lights going and, uh, I find a parking spot as best as I can and I sit, or I get out of my vehicle, uh, and all of a sudden just flooded with screaming and yelling, uh, all kinds of, uh, uh, cursing going on.

Uh, and then I hear in the background, you know, here’s this police officer trying to calm everybody down. Uh, and so in my head, I’m thinking, “Oh no, what am I getting myself into?” And I walk up and immediately the kid sees me, and he comes over to me and gives me a, gives me a big hug and, and he starts to tell me about what’s going on, uh, why this scene is playing out the way it is. He goes, I, you know, “my mom and dad are screaming at each other, they just won’t stop and, uh, somebody called the police, so now the police are here and we’re all going to get in trouble.” And, and you see him, or I saw in his demeanor, uh, you know, this kid that’s probably in…a freshmen, sophomore year in high school, and he’s, he’s just bent over, like the weight of the world is on his shoulders. Uh, and he doesn’t know what to do with it.

Uh, and so I walk up to, uh, to the scene, uh, and I never know what was gonna happen because, you know, the cop was on full alert; you could tell from his body that he was, he was paying attention to everything that was happening and who was around and, and just being ready to respond to whatever. Uh, and so I walk up, his dad says hi to me, uh, his mom knew me, so, so she said hi to me, and I introduced myself to the cop. I said, “hi, I’m Matt Tibbles, I’m the youth pastor….” and, um, and so I began to get an idea of what’s going on.

Uh, as I listened to both the mother and the father, still continuing to yell at each other and, and, and scream obscenities to each other, and the cop, you know, trying to do his thing, and I immediately just kind of step-in and say, okay, uh, I name the father…I said, could you go inside just for a little bit and try to create, you know, really trying to create some physical distancing space between the mother and the father and the police officer and the kid. Uh, and so the father reluctantly agrees to go inside, so I walk into the door, he goes inside, I shut the door. And then I walk over to the mother and the son is right there with them, uh, with her, and so she begins to calm down a little bit. The son begins…probably since the first time I got there, um, begins to take a little deeper breaths. Uh, all of his breaths up to that point had been very short, uh, and so you kind of see him begin to, to take deeper breaths, kind of like that breath that you just took. [Both laugh]

And, and the cop too, you know, the cop was taking, beginning to take some deeper breaths, and so, uh, the cop and I started kind of working, working together. You know, I asked him questions, trying to figure out what’s going on…and then the dad pops out again, and so all of us tense up immediately, like, “Oh, no, what’s gonna happen now? We just got some things to begin to calm down a little bit.” And I look at the cop and I was like, “I’m gonna go talk to the dad.” And he was like, “you go right ahead, I’ll stay here with the mother and the son.” And so I go inside and the father and the stepmother are in the room and so we, we go into the living room…go into the dining room, uh, it’s an apartment complex.

And so we go in, we sit down and I just say, you know, first of all, let’s just take some deep breaths to relax and calm down a minute. Then after those deep breaths came, we began to…I began to question, you know, what’s going on. The father began to tell me what’s going on and what had happened. Uh, and so I’m like, “okay, thanks for that. You know, if you could just stay in here, that would be great right now, uh, you know, just continue to, uh, uh, take deep breaths, continue to try to relax so that we can try to work through this, somehow, tonight without somebody going to jail.” So I walk back outside, uh, and the cop still talking to the, to the son and to his mother and we uh, again, you know, just continue to try to deescalate the situation, uh, at this time, uh, the son is not, uh, crying or as upset as he was, uh, he’s beginning to relax a little bit. Uh, the mother was calmed down, she was beginning to really relax, uh, to a certain extent.

Uh, and we work through that…we worked through that night. It just so happened that it was, uh, it worked out okay. Uh, that nobody did go to, uh, go to jail and get hauled off to jail that night. But, thinking about, you know, thinking about that night and thinking about how the kid, uh, the kid that was in my youth group, when I first arrived and got out of my vehicle, how he, uh, you know, came running to my vehicle, uh, and just kinda gave me a big hug, uh, for, for me to be there. And then seeing how things were playing out really began to, I should say, helped me along this, this trauma-informed and resilience journey, uh, that I’ve been on for the last, uh, 20 years, cause it really, showed me how much things affect kids or things affect the adults that are around them. And when they get to a point to where it overwhelms, uh, all of their coping mechanisms, you know, bad things happen after that because they began to…um, to really kind of lash out or shut down and that kind of stuff.

And in the case of this kid, you know, just being able to take a deep breath that night was a major, major theme for, uh, for, him because everything was firing out of control. You know, what kid has the ability to tell his parents to calm down when they’re screaming and yelling and, and, and saying all the times of obscenities toward, uh, toward each other, you know, no kid really has adult kids, uh, struggled to do that maybe to their parents, but, you know, think about a 14, 15 year old kid trying to, trying to be the adult in that situation and say, “you know, calm down, let’s talk about this.” Uh, and so, you know, seeing how the weight of…that was on the, on my, the kid that was in my youth group, his life, uh, in his body, uh, really began to push me in a direction of, of looking at what, what are the effects of trauma, uh, on people’s lives? And as you said, I was a youth pastor. So in my journey as a youth pastor in my youth group, uh, the youth group from when I was first starting, to the youth group, when I God opened up, other journeys for me to go down, was completely different.

patience:
Mm, in what ways?

Matt:
…in what ways; some of it was just the kids that were attending, uh, early on, it was church kids. It was kids that had parents that went to church, and that, uh, were…maybe what you would consider like core families in the church. Uh, you know, every church kind of has those families that have some power, uh, to act….and so early on, it was, it was those types of kids that were in the youth group. They were born and bred in the the church, their parents had always gone to church, uh, and so church is what they knew.

But as we transitioned, uh, I say “we,” as the youth ministry began to grow and transition by the end the majority of the kids in the youth group were these kids that were, that came from homes that weren’t as healthy. Uh, either the families were split up and, and there was some type of divorce or estrangement in, in the parents. Some of the kids were, were the ones that were bullied at school, uh, and were constantly being affected by those types of assaults.

Matt:
Um, the emotional, physical assaults, uh, on them at school day in and day out. Uh, some of the kids, uh, came from families that didn’t even go to church. And, and in some cases were adamantly against any type of religious faith. And some of the kids also were the ones that were in trouble with the law, that there were court appearances. There were, you know, some type of probation or, or, or detention, uh, that was in, uh, that they were required to fulfill. Uh, and so that became the youth group, uh, you know, this place where, uh, it was really wonderful to see, um, that it was a place where they could be themselves. Uh, and in some cases it was the only place that they could, they could be who they were and it allowed them to relax. It allowed them to breathe.

Matt:
Uh, there were some times that due to their schedules and due to just the, uh, the constantly having to be alert their body, always having to be alert, uh, that when they came to youth group, they actually just took a nap. And, you know, you think about that in, in youth ministry or some type of learning environment. And you’re like, no, no, we don’t want that. But in our case, we wanted that because it was a place that they could feel like, uh, they were safe enough, uh, to sleep and really just trying to allow it allowed their body to relax. Uh, and so it was really a wonderful journey that our youth ministry went on, that, that we, uh, we had this big transition, uh, throughout, uh, throughout my employment there in the Pacific Northwest that allowed us to, to invite teenagers, to be themselves. Yeah.

patience:
And then how was your time in Alaska, Alaska? Uh, Alaska.

Matt:
It was great. I never thought my family and I would move to Alaska, but, uh, but God called us to, uh, to journey up that direction. And we settled in this little community. That’s called the first it’s called Ketchikan, Alaska. Uh, and it’s the first city that you come in contact with as you move up from the lower 48, if you’re coming from the South. Uh, and so we settled in Ketchikan, Alaska, and, and I was looking for a job and eventually found a job at, uh, the Ketchikan regional youth facility. And that was associated with, uh, juvenile justice, uh, in Alaska. So it was a detention facility, and I never dreamed myself that I would be working in a detention facility, but as, as I was employed there and, and I ended up working almost two and a half years at the detention facility, we were able, or I should say I was able to really just re-engage with the kids that were in my youth group.

Matt:
These are the kids that were, were either pushed to the margins on society, or didn’t have the best home life. And so day in and day out, I got to interact and, and care for the, uh, these kids that I somehow I’ve come in contact with, with a wall and we’re in our facility. And so with Chris, we were able to, um, that’s where I was officially introduced to trauma-informed care. Uh, it’s where I was officially introduced to restorative justice.

And, and so began this like reading journey for me, uh, that, uh, I was able to go through, uh, go through some of the trainings by Dr. Randy Moss. Uh, he did all of our trauma-informed trainings for the division of juvenile justice. And so, uh, we got to talk about what is trauma-informed care, what does it mean? What is it, what are the physiological responses to trauma?

Matt:
And we got to explore all of that, and then try to the best we can bring that into our detention facility. Now our detention facility was pre adjudication. And so what that means is it was, it was before they went to court system or while they were going through the court system. So, uh, any the juveniles in our facility knew, uh, that even though we were building relationships with them and healthy relationships with them, uh, that they knew that we could testify against them. Uh, so it was, it was really kind of a really tough balance that we wanted to build relationships with them and, and really tried to, to model what it means to be healthy in relationships. But at the same time, they knew we could testify against them.

So they, they couldn’t be completely transparent. There’s a power imbalance. Yeah. It was a huge imbalance. Uh, but, uh, we were able to walk that line, uh, and we were able to build relationships with them and have healthy relationships as, as best as we could, so that, uh, while their time in, in our detention facility, um, was, was as little trauma inducing, uh, as it could be,

patience:
You could make it. Yeah. And you said you were listening to, um, uh, Zehr Institute webinars. Can you tell us about that?

Matt:
No, grave shifts are great for relaxing and, and that kind of stuff, because most of the time the juveniles were sleeping. And so a lot of our duties were to, you know, get the day detention facility ready for the next day, make sure all the laundry was done and ready to go for when the, uh, when the juveniles woke up and then we would get them up. You know, we were with a smiling face, uh, getting them up in the morning. And, and so, uh, you know, the hours of two, three, four or five o’clock in the morning, uh, it seemed to drag a little bit, but it was great because, uh, we had a resource shelf that we could, uh, get books from. And the little book on restorative justice was on there. Uh, and so, uh, I was able to read Howard’s Zehr’s, um, little book, uh, and then that introduced me to the Zehr Institutes.

So, uh, we were always encouraged to find training and to do training. So, uh, some of those wee hours in the morning where we’re listening to the podcasts, uh, from the Zehr Institute and, and learning as much as I could through all of that. Uh, and so that was, that was a, that was a great experience and introduction to, uh, CJP to 91����Ƶ, uh, to, to restorative justice, to the Zehr Institute. Um, you know, and one of the things that I, I think about, uh, about that time, uh, when I was a juvenile justice officer, was there were two, there’s a couple of stories that really stand out to me. Um, one was part of our procedures was whenever we were transitioning from one part of the detention facility to the other part or to another part of the detention facility with, with the juveniles, uh, they had to line up guys in, lined up first.

Uh, and the young ladies were in the back of the line. Uh, and then the juvenile justice officer was behind that. Uh, and so when we were, when we were transitioning, uh, there just happened to be a day that the, uh, we were going out to rec., uh, to the recreation courts. And, and so we were lined up, we were walking down the hallway, uh, and there was this young lady that was in the back of the line and, and she kind of stops, uh, and, and turns around and looks, looks at me. And she’s like, Mr. Tibbles, could you stand to the left of me? And I’m like, you know, it goes against that. Uh, going through my head was, is like, okay, this goes against our policy. We’re supposed to do, could get trouble for this, you know, all of that stuff going through my head. Uh, but you know, the simple request of me just walking behind her, but to the, and now to the left, I’ve heard so that she could kind of see me out of my peripherals or out of her peripheral vision was huge. Uh, and I didn’t ask her where why. I was like, yeah, I’d be glad to, to walk to the left.

And the more I reflected on that situation, uh, it made sense, you know, given, given what had happened to her in her life, uh, having a guy walked behind her was unnerving. It created a trau.. Recreated, a trauma response in her life. And so just the simple movement from being behind her, just to the left of her a little bit so that she could see me, uh, relaxed that trauma response in her life. And, and so the anxiety and all of that kind of unnerving, uh, didn’t happen. Uh, and so, uh, in that particular case, I was able to, you know, I was thankful for my trauma informed training, uh, because I was just like, yeah, totally, totally be able to do that. So if you can just relax walking down the hallway and you see me out of, you know, the left side of your, your peripheral vision then great, uh, cause I would hate to cause even more stress in your life that you, that you don’t need. Um,

patience:
And you didn’t, did you get into trouble for having…?

Matt:
I did not, right. And the hallway wasn’t very big. So, you know, it wasn’t that big of a movement, but, but still there were, there were protocols and kind of stuff that we had, uh, that we needed to follow, uh, that was just accepted norms. Um, another thing that, that I was so thankful for, for our facility was in, uh, there was one time, uh, it was about a two and a half through oh, no, sorry, one and a half to two week period that we had, we had this mix of juveniles in, in the facility and they, there was a group that didn’t like, uh, another group. Uh, and so, uh, and particularly one person, uh, and so tensions were always high. Uh, it was always you walk in, you just kind of feel that, that things, things were tense, uh, and they could explode at any moment.

Um, I was working the evening shift that time and we were, we were able, uh, depending on what level the, the juveniles were at, according to their behavior, there was level one, two and three, uh, level ones went to bed, the earliest level twos in the middle and then level threes got to stay up a little later. Um, and so we were in the process of getting everybody to, to bed somehow. And, and, uh, for about a week and a half to two weeks, there’s this one young lady that it was, it was clockwork, uh, when it came time for her, probably I should probably say about five minutes before it was time for her to go to, to bed. Uh, she would began to amp up and began to act out, Oh, and that would rise the tension or raise the attention of everybody else.

And, and, and some of the officers, uh, including myself on some days are like, Oh, no, here we go again. Uh, but I’m so thankful, uh, for our trauma informed care and for the emphasis that we had in, uh, in our facility, because, uh, in some of the other facilities, uh, it would be really easy for people just to, to, uh, to put her in handcuffs, uh, and put her in a room and force her to go to her room. And one of the big things about us is we tried to do, uh, all that we could, uh, before we had to get to that moment. Uh, and so part of that meant that if we, if we could spend two to three hours talking to them, uh, to where they willingly went into their rooms, uh, then we were going to spend two to three hours talking to them, instead of trying to, to, uh, uh, coerce them, force them, force them, uh, into, into their room.

And so, um, so in this particular incident, like I said, you know, for a week and a half to two weeks, uh, it was, uh, and I forget exactly what time it was, but five minutes before, uh, she would amp up a little bit, uh, and then that would get other people angry. So we said, we’d have to send, uh, everybody to their rooms. Uh, and some of them, you know, 30, 30 minutes to an hour before, uh, they were supposed to go to the room, so they weren’t happy about that. Uh, and so we would send these sitting in the day room, or I would be sitting in the day room, uh, just talking to her, uh, for two to three hours to just try to get her to, uh, to relax and calm down on your own, and then willingly make that choice, uh, to go into her room.

And, you know, and the beautiful thing was, is, is not once, not once, did we have to, uh, do a physical restraint during that time that, uh, she chose to chose to, uh, and it was like a light switch, uh, is like after, after we had spent, you know, a couple of hours talking and was like, okay, Mr. Tibbles, I’m ready to go to bed. I’m like, okay, let’s go to bed. And so again, I guess thinking about that is, is the reality that we, because of trauma-informed, it really, it caused us to ask different questions. It wasn’t, this behavior is here, here, this young lady is acting up again. Uh, and, uh, you know, she’s screaming at everybody or she’s doing some type of, of cursing at us. Uh, but it was really allowed us to step back and say, okay, in what reality does this behavior makes sense?

So instead of, uh, instead of doing some type of assumption or judgment of her, that she does this, she’s doing this on purpose and all that kind of stuff that, that we kind of get caught into sometimes of, of really just blaming other people, it allowed us to step back and say, you know, what, in what reality does this behavior makes sense? And so when we questioned that it allowed us to see a much bigger, broader picture of what was going on and in this young lady’s life and, and things that had happened to her, you know, given, given a situation and given some situations here, uh, there weren’t positive things that happened when the lights went out.

patience:
Oh, of course. And so it made perfect sense that she would resist…

Matt:
Yes. That moment to go to bed when the lights were turned down. And so it allowed us to really step back and see that and not taking any of that, but, uh, the acting out behavior personally, that it was against us, that it was, it was just her body signaling…

patience:
“…I don’t trust this…”

Matt:
Lights-off don’t mean good things. Uh, and so we were able to, uh, to really kind of work through that, um, and without having to force, uh, force her into her room and that kind of stuff. And so really thinking about, you know, juvenile justice in Alaska, you know, I’m going to give a big shout out to them because I really think, uh, that they’re, uh, they’re way ahead of places here in the lower 48.

patience:
Yeah. I mean, right there, you all were seeking her consent, which is probably something she was not used to having before. And so she would voluntarily just go to bed because you allowed her to make the choice.

Matt:
Yeah. And that would be cool. It is pretty cool. Uh, I will tell you, it was, it was tiring. It was exhausting, uh, cause when you’re supposed to get off at 11 or 12 and you don’t get off to two or three in the morning and then you have to turn around and come back, you know, uh, less than 16 hours later, um, uh, the patients, it was, it was at times it was, it tests our patients and our resolve to, to even practice trauma-informed care. Cause it was, you know, there were times where it was like, oh, here we go.

Uh, but then again, you know, once we, once we were able to get into that and really just kind of check ourselves again, uh, it allowed us to, to treat people within it and they haven’t, they haven’t, and in some cases they haven’t experience. So, was really thankful for that really thankful for our, our, our facility. We were, we were one of, well, I should say in that two and a half years that I worked there, uh, we only had to do one restraint. Uh, whereas all, uh, the, the, all the other facilities, uh, were doing at least one with Shane once a week.

patience:
Oh, wow.

Matt:
So we were pretty proud of our, the way we worked and the way we treated, the way we treated, uh, the juveniles that were in our care at the time to, to really, uh, begin to, um, to see their humanity, to see their dignity and say, you know what, uh, we’re going to honor that we’re going to honor who you are. Uh, and we’re going to care for you as best as we can.

patience:
How have you brought all that, uh, experience from your background and of course you graduate…then you came to CJP and you earned your masters in conflict transformation. When was that?

Matt:
That was 2018.

patience:
Okay, yeah, 2018. Um, and now you’re a teacher here at 91����Ƶ, uh, the department of applied social sciences, correct? And CJP as well?

Matt:
Yeah, CJP, uh, I do some teaching at CJP, uh, since 91����Ƶ has gone to the three school model, uh, I guess we really don’t have a department of applied social sciences anymore. We, even though we do still address ourselves as DAS and that kind of stuff. Uh, but, but yeah, so in the peace building and development program, I teach in the sociology program. Uh CJP and then I also do, uh, I’ve co-taught, uh, in the masters, in nursing programs here.

patience:
Yeah. So how has all that experience influenced you as a teacher? In creating a trauma informed classroom, especially in this past year that has been so disruptive to all kinds of people, but especially students. Can you talk about that?

Matt:
Sure can. Yeah, it’s, it’s been a huge impact. Um, and knowing, knowing the kids, uh, that I was working with, you know, from youth ministry to detention facility, um, I think also I didn’t mention this, but also in Alaska, I worked for a domestic violence and sexual assault shelter. Uh, and so, uh, I was doing a lot in the community of trying to, uh, create a culture of prevention. Uh, so we were trying to get ahead of the game of, of, of violence, uh, and, and create communal practices in the community so that we would work together to end violence against not just women, but against kids, against men, and against indigenous communities, uh, against the land, uh, that kind of stuff. And so when I came down here and began teaching, um, it was real easy to see that those students in my classrooms versus similar to, to all the kids that I’ve been interacting with, the majority of them here in 91����Ƶ, you haven’t been in trouble with the law, uh, or anything like that.

But, uh, we were able to, or I should say I was able to create, uh co-create with them an environment that said, Hey, you know what, your whole self is welcome here in the classroom. And, and in the education, uh, you know, a lot of times in traditional education, it’s, it’s, you know, come learn all that kind of stuff. And, and one of the first things that, that we, or that I should say that I, I do in my classrooms is we’re going to come and be first. Uh, so it’s not about the material or anything when you first come in, it’s about, um, what identities are you bringing in today? What experiences are you bringing in that you weren’t, that are new or that have come up since the last time we were together?

And so we just, we just come in and be uh, and we, we do a check in, uh, whether it’s, whether it’s just a mental check in or, or something like, you know, Hey, what’s your capacity. We learned today. Uh, we do a thumbs up, thumbs sideways, thumbs down, um, or, uh, you know, are we able to concentrate, uh, and really try to began to, to not just situate ourselves and my students into the classroom, but, but that whole invitation of, of, you know, what, everything’s welcome in this classroom, we can handle this. Uh, and so if you’re having a terrible day, then, then you know what, uh, we can, we can do this together and we’ll support you as a classroom, uh, as, as best as possible.

And, and again, it goes back to that question that, that came up when I was in juvenile justice. Uh, and just beginning to learn about trauma informed care, as you know, and what reality does this behavior make sense? So if one of my students is, is normally pretty talkative, but for a, you know, a couple of class periods in a row uh, become really reserved and withdrawn a little bit, you know, it’s like, “hey, hey, something may be going on…let’s talk about that.” And so, and not, not necessarily in front of the class, but pull them aside or, or, uh, just kind of talk to them and say, Hey, we can know what’s going on. Uh, and if they’re willing to open up, they they’re, uh, that’s great if they’re not, you know, that’s okay too, because maybe they’re not at a place yet to be able to talk about whatever it is going on in their lives. Uh, and so I just communicate, Hey, I’m here to support you. However, uh, just, you know, don’t be afraid to reach out and, and that’s really created an interesting classroom environment.

patience:
What do you mean?

Matt:
Well, thinking about, you know, early on last year when the pandemic was just beginning in March, and it was two days before 91����Ƶ sent out a message that said, Hey, we’re moving to virtual. Uh, we don’t know how long we’re going to be here. So everybody, uh, you know, transition to this, this hard shift, hard transition into, uh, meeting online meeting in zoom. The Wednesday before that Friday email came out, uh, it was, it was, we were on a break in a classroom. One of my classes, that’s, that’s two and a half hours long, uh, for the week.

And, and so we were on a break, uh, and that was everybody was, everybody was talking about, was like, you know, Hey, what’s going to happen. We don’t know. It was really kind of unsettling, uh, in their behavior. And, and, and some of them who struggle with some anxiety anyway, we’re, we’re really beginning to, to exhibit signs of being overwhelmed. And so we, so I was just like, Hey, you know, what do we need to do? We need to stop class right now and just kind of talk about this, about how we’re doing, uh, what are we, what are we what’s creating anxiety in our lives? And, and they were like, Yes, totally. I was like, okay, all right, wait, we can do this. Uh, and so for the next, I don’t know how long, uh, it might’ve been for the rest of the class period, uh, that we just stopped, you know, the material that was, that was supposed to be covered that day.

And, and we attended to ourselves, uh, and in that moment, we were able to see one, uh, that we were all experiencing very similar anxieties of not knowing what was next. Uh, and then also we were able to acknowledge how that anxiety and how that, that sense of overwhelm was beginning to influence our body, how our body was responding to that. So some people there, it was, it was beginning to interrupt their sleep rhythms. Uh, for some people it was, it was all they could think about, uh,

patience:
Because of the pandemic or what?

Matt:
Yeah, yeah. The looming pandemic, uh, and, and all of us too, really not knowing how, um, how deep it would go or how long it would go. Uh, and so we had this conversation, uh, that allowed us to invite, uh, our whole bodies into the conversation and saying, you know what, my body’s feeling anxiety here. Uh, and, and how that plays out. Some people were saying, you know, I have this neck pain that just doesn’t go away, or I have this headache that it doesn’t matter how much I could go from that. I take, uh, it’s still there. Uh, and so really we were able to, it was a restorative justice and trauma awareness class. So we were really able to say, okay, let’s talk about the trauma, that the trauma response that your body is beginning to communicate. And so we were able to, to again, attend to our bodies, but also attend to the bodies of everybody else in the room as a collective.

And, and so we were able to really work through all of that and have that conversation. Uh, and, and that actually set us up for, uh, probably one of the most powerful circle processes, uh, that I have ever been a part of. Uh, so we transitioned online in that class. We moved over to, uh, like I said, virtual, uh, and then about a month later, you know, you just saw that the students, uh, it registered with them, that we weren’t going to be back in person that semester, uh, they had already transitioned home. And so they were beginning to struggle with, with being at home. Some of them hadn’t been home, uh, uh, in a long time. Uh, and so trying to renegotiate those dynamics, uh, with parents and siblings and, and, and not knowing when things were going to change or if they were going to change.

Uh, and so we, uh, so I, I asked him, I was like, you know, Hey, do we need to do like a restorative justice circle process, uh, to, uh, to talk about the harms that COVID, the pandemic is doing to us. They’re like, yeah, we’d love to do that. Uh, and so we, um, the following class period, we, we did a circle process, uh, and really just had three rounds. It was online. So I created this little, little power or PowerPoint slide. Uh, everybody put a photo of themselves around a circle, uh, and everybody had their own, you know, I gave them agency and said, Hey, you know, bring your own, bring your own talking piece. So they all picked, you know, some type of gift that represented themselves. And, and, uh, you know, there, I think there was a rubber ducky and, and sometimes a ball and, and all kinds of things were our talking pieces that day.

Uh, and so we positioned ourselves around the circle online, so that we’d know the order of who’s going next. And, um, and so the first round, was, you know, what are the harms that the COVID-19 pandemic have caused you? I was really grateful that our class was two and a half hours cause we never would have gotten through through it. Uh, but, you know, yeah. Uh, and so as we, as the students began to talk, you know, they really began to, um, be transparent and be vulnerable, uh, and, and share, you know, some deep harms that, that, that COVID-19 was creating in their lives, you know, not just being away from 91����Ƶ for the semester, uh, or anything like that, but, but like, uh, relational harms of things ending abruptly and having to, to, uh, to move home or something like that, seniors not getting to, to, uh, spend their last semester the way they thought they would be spending their last semester and, and, and just having deep, deep hurt.

Uh, and so they, they got to express that and, and, and it was a place where, where we have the relationships established that, that we can hold that, uh, you know, holding that on a one-on-one relationship is, is extremely tough, but, but holding that in a community that’s, uh, that, um, allows the person to be who they are, uh, was an amazing gift to, to them, uh, actually to all of us. Uh, the second round was, uh, what do you need, what do you need from your peers? Uh, I started trying to address some needs, uh, and then the third round was, was all about how do we, how do we support each other? Uh, and so how, how do we as community surround each other, uh, and try to support each other. And I have to tell you, uh, there were points in that, uh, in that circle process that I was actually panicking on the inside because of what everybody was sharing.

I was just like, I was like, I don’t know what to do. I was like, okay, Matt, trauma-informed, trauma-informed. How do, how do we navigate this? Uh, you know, cause people are crying and, uh, and that kind of stuff. But the beautiful thing about that was because we had really been very intentional about creating, uh, a space, a trauma informed space that said, um, you know, your whole self is welcome. And we, as a community can carry, carry that, uh, it allowed for like this huge transformational moment during the circle process that we all started sharing and caring everybody.

And it was one of the things that, that even to this day, when I talked to, uh, I talked to some of the students that were in this class or, or get an email back from, uh, one of the students that had graduated, you know, they referenced, they referenced that class, uh, that specific class and that specific circle process that, that really allowed us to, to pay attention to the reality of, of everybody else while paying attention to our reality, uh, and to create, uh, this very empathetic space, uh, where we could be, uh, we could be ourselves. I, you know, and it’s one of the things too, as an instructor, you’ve got to be comfortable, you know, in my classes, we’re always talking about transparency and vulnerability and that kind of stuff.

So as an instructor, you’ve gotta model and you gotta be comfortable with transparency and vulnerability all at the same time. And sometimes it’s scary, scary thing to do. Uh, but, uh, but it’s so rewarding because then they get to see us as the instructors saying, you know what? We were struggling with some of the same things, uh, read it and know, you know, who knew how deep the pandemic would go and how long as we continue. And, you know, over a year later now continue to try to navigate the, uh, uh, the loss, uh, the depth of, of, uh, destruction that it’s created in our communities and individuals, families in our communities lives in our nation.

Uh, and so, uh, so it was just a beautiful thing that, that as we, from my past experiences, as we, we are, as I try to create this trauma-informed environment inside the classroom, uh, it really allows the students to, to open up. Uh, I asked one of my students this semester I had in one of my classes I have, uh, probably about half students I’ve had before and half students I haven’t had before. And I asked one of my students before I was like, how would you describe my classes? Uh, and this particular student, uh, she goes, she goes, you know what, it’s just like a big hug…”you come in here, and you just walk away loved,” uh, you know, I’m very grateful for that. I’m glad that, that we’re able to, uh, to provide spaces like that. But, you know, the thing here too is, is the, the students have to choose to go down that way too. It’s not just me setting the expectations or anything like that. We really try to, co-create a learning environment where everybody feels safe. Uh, and, and that’s a huge responsibility, uh, for the students that, that their agency, uh, is, is extremely important in creating, uh, what we try to create. So, so, yeah, so there’s all of that. And it is really fun.

patience:
Can you talk about the work-group that you guys formed at 91����Ƶ? Uh syndemics and trauma informed resilience pedagogy.

Matt:
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Uh, again, going back to, uh, going back to last spring, uh, when we were all trying to navigate that 91����Ƶ, you did a, I thought did it really well, uh, did a good job, uh, on staying in touch with students, but also staying in touch with faculty and staff about, you know, what is our mental health and that kind of stuff. And so, uh, we would have these monthly meetings where, where on zoom, everybody would show up, uh, I’m sure you showed up sometimes patience, that we’d come and we’d get the latest update of what the university’s doing, uh, and what they were planning. Yeah. And what kind of input, uh, did we need to have, or did they want from us?

And, uh, and so there was this, uh, there was part of the conversation that was going on was, was the idea of, of the trauma responses in all of our lives, not just our students’ lives, but our faculty lives, the instructors and the staff and how we were all showing, uh, signs of, of trauma in our lives.

patience:
At the very least being really overwhelmed.

Matt:
Yes, yes. And so, uh, part of the, so out of that conversation, uh, this trauma informed, uh, and resilient pedagogy, uh, work work group formed, uh, and said, you know, how do we as teachers, or how do we, as 91����Ƶ began to create trauma-informed classrooms, uh, for, for our students, but also for us. Uh, and so, uh, it was open to anybody who wanted to come and be a part of this. And one of the great things about that invitation was, uh, we have, uh, really, almost, almost a year now, uh, we’ve had this, this interdisciplinary group of people, uh, from staff to, to, uh, to instructors and, and tenure track faculty, uh, that we all come from all different places on 91����Ƶ.

Uh, so there’s, there’s different centers represented there’s there’s faculty from, from, uh, the different schools that we have represented. Uh, we have education, uh, faculty, peace-building faculty. We have, uh, adult learning faculty. We have, we have counseling faculty. Um, and, and I’m sure there’s some more than I’m forgetting,

patience:
Folks from Lancaster [Campus]…?

Matt:
Uh, and so, uh, you have, uh, some from the Lancaster campus that came on after we’ve been meeting for a few months when Kinder got a, uh, got word, uh, from somebody that this group was meeting. And she’s like, she’s like, I want to be a part of it. Uh, and so, uh, so it’s, it’s been great to have wind from that, the Lancaster campus and, and what a joy and, and, and, and richness that she brings into, uh, to our conversations and, and, and really trying to just explore and say, there’s a lot of literature out there, a lot of it in K through 12, and that kind of stuff about being trauma-informed schools and that kind of stuff, but there’s not a lot in higher ed. Uh, and, and so we were like, you know, what does it look like here? What are our classrooms looks like? Uh, if we adopted a trauma-informed and resilient pedagogy, uh, it’s specifically in an 91����Ƶ context.

So really trying to, to dive deep into our context and see what is, what is useful, how can we support, uh, faculty across all disciplines, faculty and staff, uh, across all disciplines. So that, uh, when the, when our students walk into our classrooms, uh, one, they know it, uh, they’re not going to use the word trauma-informed, but they know that they’re going to be loved and cared for. Uh, and they know that that they as a person, the whole person of themselves is, is richly, um, I should say, is welcomed into, into that classroom so that, uh, so that they experience, you know, an optimal learning environment where they’re safe. Uh, they’re, they’re empowered where they have agency, uh, and lots of other things, too. So, so we’ve been, we’ve been working almost a year. There was a document we reproduced, uh, earlier this year that was sent out to all faculty and staff.

patience:
Yeah. What’s the title of that document, what’s it called?

Matt:
It’s just trauma-informed strategies and practices, trauma-informed resilience, strategies, and practices. Uh, and so again, it’s specific to the, 91����Ƶ context. And so we take, uh, six, uh, commonly accepted best practice.

patience:
What are some of those…?

Matt:
Resilient themes. Uh, some of it’s, uh, empowerment, uh, some of it is safety. Uh, some of it is looking at the context and the environment of all of that. And so, uh, so there’s six themes there that, that we’ve, we’ve centered this document around and in the document, it breaks down into, you know, questions as a instructor is, is prepping for class, uh, whether it’s the beginning of the semester or in the middle of the semester, uh, or towards the end, we, we really try to ask some very strategic questions.

patience:
Mm it’s like a guiding document, almost.

Matt:
A little bit of just saying, you know, Hey, what, what are your classroom rituals that, that, uh, cause one of the things when, when a student, or when someone’s in, in, uh, in some type of trauma response, uh, ritual, uh, is important. And so if they know that when they’re coming to say one of my classes or someone else’s classes, uh, there’s this ritual that happens, uh, that is fully expected that they’re not going to be surprised because that’s the last thing that they need at that moment. Uh, when they’re in some type of trauma responses to be surprised, uh, that they can say, okay, I know what’s gonna happen in this class. That’s always going to begin with how are we doing today? Uh, and then move into the forecast of what’s going to happen in class and then move into the readings or small groups or something like that.

And so, uh, so part of it, you know, really ask strategic questions about, you know, what are your beginning rituals? What are your closing rituals? Uh, and so we really try to provide those some just very strategic questions, uh, for faculty to, to think about as they’re planning their classroom and as they’re um thinking about their whole course, uh, throughout the semester. Uh, and then, uh, under, under each of those is another part is, is just resilience strategies. And so we try to give them very tangible, very strategic, um, resilience strategies, um, that, that they can do. And again, it could be something just as simple as, as a small group check-in, uh, allow the students to check in, in small groups.

patience:
That’s really important, especially for introverts who don’t like to engage in very large groups.

Matt:
Yeah, very much so.

patience:
Um, Matt, which CJP faculty have influenced how you approach the class…what are your learnings…which sort of teachers have influenced who you are and how you show up in class?

Matt:
Yeah, for sure. You know, thinking about my time at CJP, but also just thinking about, uh, all the, all the different professors that, that I had, but, but also the ones that, you know, we just still continue to have some type of relationships with, uh, collegial relationship with, um, you know, one of the first ones that comes to my mind is Jayne, um, Jayne and I connected….

patience:
Jayne Docherty?

Matt:
Yes, Jayne Docherty.
Jayne Docherty and I connected really talking about worldviews and systems. Uh, and that’s one of the things that, you know, from her book, uh, learning lessons from Waco, uh, and then having her, I was, I was one of the last, I think I was the last class. My cohort was the last class that had her as, as a faculty member, uh, in Foundations too. And so, um, so we had, we, we, we connected, I, I went up to her office one day, uh, as a student, and I said, I said, Jane, I was like, I feel like there’s something that I need to learn from you.

Matt:
So I need to sit with you. Uh, and let’s just talk. Uh, and so every, I don’t know if it was like every Friday or every other Friday, uh, I would sit in her room, uh, in her office, uh, at CJP there at Martin store. And, and for an hour, we would just talk, uh, about anything and everything. Uh, and so really thinking about systems, uh, and for me, trying to apply that into, into my own work experience already, but also moving forward is, is, you know, what are these, what are these systems, uh, and worldviews that create, uh, strategically create trauma responses and people’s lives. Uh, and so really began to try to connect that, uh, Gloria, Gloria Rhodes and I, uh, connected, especially around analysis of really trying to, uh, look at a conflict or look at, um, these, these systems and say, what let’s, let’s analyze this.

Matt:
Uh, and let’s get a big picture of what’s actually going on here and who, who are the actors and, and, uh, you know, and, and in any good analysts, there’s an analysis, I should say. There’s, there’s also that part of, of that informs action. Uh, and so, uh, strategically again, thinking about, uh, how trauma, trauma responses, um, happen in people’s lives, you know, what, what are actions that we can do to help ground people and bring them into a present moment, uh, so that the response isn’t as, as hard or as deep as it, as it normally would have been, uh, uh, you know, very psychosocial trauma, uh, where it was, was profound, uh, loved sitting in Barry’s class. Uh, and he actually helped me create a…

patience:
Very hard?

Matt:
Yes, very hard. Sorry. Uh, Barry helped me create this, uh, dignity, uh, toolkit, uh, even though Donna Hicks would push back and say, “you know, dignity’s not a tool kit,” I would say, “yes, you’re exactly right.” Uh, but, uh, uh, but also I would say, you know, what, there needs to be tangible things that people can do inside the classroom or inside some type of mentoring, uh, relationship, uh, that helps people connect to, to, uh, to dignity.

And so I was so thankful for, for Barry Hart, uh, and his final assignment in that class that allowed me to actually sit down, or I should say, force me to sit down, uh, and it created and create that toolkit. Um, Dave Brubaker, uh, and his organizational development and change classes, uh, were instrumental, uh, because he, uh, as, uh, as you know, I, I do some consulting on the side with organizations, uh, and, and so he really helped solidify, um, some of the processes, but also how to get into, uh, how to look at that and how trauma affects organizations, because organizations really are just human systems.

And so being able to, to look at when, when an organization is trauma organized, uh, is going to affect everybody. Uh, and so how do we, how do we help organizations or walk alongside organizations to help them realize that, you know, you’re on a trauma response right now as an organization and it’s not healthy. And so, so that was great. Uh, Carl, Carl Stauffer and Johanna, uh, Turner with restorative justice, obviously, uh, Tim Seidel, uh, and his resilience and political economy that he, uh, that is his specialty, uh, was always grateful, uh, for that.

And Katie, Katie Mansfield, uh, in her work with star and trauma and resilience and, and reframing the body. I was able, you know, the beautiful thing about being in a community like 91����Ƶ right now is, is we can connect our students to, to other people. Uh, and, and just today, I was able to connect one of my RJ and trauma students to her, uh, because my student was really interested in, in, in embodiment and how, how trauma separates us from, from experiencing our full body, uh, and that kind of stuff. And I was like, Oh, I know the perfect person for you to talk to you. Um, …

patience:
Katie Mansfield?

Matt:
That’s right! And you know, and then Carolyn Stauffer, uh, you know, all of her powerful work with, uh, around trauma and resilience and the transformation of sexual hormones, uh, is, is just crucial to, uh, to what’s happening, uh, and how we heal, uh, from that, uh, especially given that I’ve worked in domestic violence and sexual assault, uh, in that field. Uh, so it’s really nice to be around that. And then just, you know, my classmates, like Trina, Trina Trotter Nussbaum and Kajungu Mturi, and, and in many others that we just being able to share experiences, uh, but also dive deeper into, into some of these things.

patience:
Yeah, yeah. You’re, you’re obviously one of the…well, it’s not obvious, but I’m just going to name it, that you are one of the most recent graduates of the program who’s now teaching within CJP, who is the first guest of this Peacebuilder podcast. So, it’s great to hear this, you know, both sides of it having been a student and of course, transitioning to then be an instructor and bringing your background from that and what you learned from, you know, these teachers and applying all of that. So that’s really great!

Matt:
Yeah, it’s been, it’s been such a, a wonderful blessing, especially, you know, each of, each of the faculty in each of the instructors have, um, have their calling, uh, and bring such passion to their work, that, that it’s beautiful to see them doing what they love, but it’s also beautiful to explore and journey with them as we all try to journey together and whatever. And in this particular case, you know, it’s, it’s been such a blessing to see and to experience, um, all of us working together. Uh, but also, you know, for me specifically, especially when it comes to trauma and resilience, uh, in, in systems work, uh, to see, to bring together how all the little, all the pieces that, that we can fit from, uh, from all the other instructors into a very comprehensive and, and very informative way of, of looking at trauma, uh, looking at resilient systems, uh, and worldviews and trying to help people.

I don’t, I don’t necessarily use trauma healing anymore because I think that’s very presumptive of us. Uh, but I am, but I do use the word trauma transformation. And so how we are, how we are transforming, um, our traumas and our trauma responses into, uh, is something that is, um, it’s just healthier for us, uh, whether that’s individual, uh, but also more, uh, looking at it from a collective and communal standpoint.

patience:
Yeah, yeah. Well, Matt, as we transition here toward the end, I would like to invite you to tell me how you create these beautiful cutting boards. Um, they are such a beautiful creation every time I look at a picture of what you’ve created and you very strategically…even when you photograph them, they’re very beautifully laid. It’s very intentional; tell me about that –it seems like it might be, it feels very different from what you do on a regular sort of basis. I just feel so different that it’s probably a resilience, um, type of thing that you engage in?

Matt:
Yeah, yeah, it is.
It’s, um, it’s a, it’s a COVID hobby.

patience:
It started during COVID…a COVID hobby?

Matt:
Uh, it’s one of those, how has that came up during COVID that, that time slowed down dramatically. And, uh, you know, my wife was like, okay, what are you going to do with yourself? And I was like, uh, I don’t know. Uh, so anyway, so started working and I was really thinking about from, from a standpoint of, of, of resilience, uh, because it was, for me, it was an opportunity to, to not just slow down, but to work, uh, in tandem with the earth, uh, trying not, I really try to bring, uh, bring a very, uh, sustainable, sustainable approach to it. Uh, and so it’s, it’s allowed me to, to slow down.

Uh, I also use it as, as a spiritual practice. And so it’s, it’s, it’s a way for me to connect, uh, connect to the earth and stay connected to the earth, uh, in living ways, even though the wood is dead, uh, it allows it allows me to, uh, to be creative, uh, which if someone’s at a trauma, uh, some type of trauma response, creativity greatly decreases, uh, because of, uh, because of our physiology and the way the brain works.

Uh, and so this has allowed me to continue to be creative, uh, but also see that from a, from a spiritual perspective of, of, you know, we’re bringing, we’re bringing things back to life, uh, and the stories, you know, the stories I’m just getting into this, but the stories that the, the grains tells are powerful, powerful stories, uh, because, you know, as, as, uh, I guess maybe most people know, but, you know, each, each ring represents a year’s life or a year’s growth of that particular tree. So, so to be able to see how those, those grains grow, uh, and those rings develop and how, how it occurs and turns and does all of that, uh, it’s, it’s a beautiful thing, too.

patience:
The gestures that your body…

Matt:
It’s a full body thing, right?

patience:
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt:
Being able to, uh, really dive into that has, has created this space, that it’s not a puzzle, uh, the grain, the grain tells you what it wants, uh, and, and, you know, you just get to be along for the ride. And so, uh, so a lot of these, a lot of these cutting boards, uh, they’re already there. It’s just, just putting, putting them together and, and, uh, and being able to, to feel the wood with the hands, with my hands as we work through it, or as I should say, uh, as I, as I work with it, uh, and then also, you know, being able to connect to, to, uh, to my customers, uh, and, and listen to their stories. Uh, most of them, most of my customers right now are people that I know. So, so being familiar with their stories and saying, yeah, this, this cutting board looks, this feels right for you.

And so trying to have that, that kind of connection to… people listening to this might be saying, Oh, no, that sounds wacky, but, but, but it’s true. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a connection that, that, uh, becomes part of, of whoever’s going to be using it in their household and that kind of stuff. And so, uh, so it’s been really, really awesome. It’s expensive. Um, uh, when you don’t have all the equipment and you have to first start out buying all that equipment and that kind of stuff, but yeah, they, uh, the serendipitous, one of the serendipitous things that has happened out of that is, is, you know, I don’t buy wood, uh, unless I absolutely have to, which is not very often, uh, from the big box stores. Uh, so I’ve connected to this, this, uh, local community of millers, uh, uh, of, of, of people who sell local wood and, and cut it and, and mill it and calendar it themselves, and there are, there are a lot of peace builders out there that are, that I had never even knew existed in the woodworking, uh, arena.

One of my, one of my favorite ones is in Timberville and it never fails. We, we always have a conversation. He did. Um, I think it was eight years of volunteering and some type of peacework. Uh, and so, you know, if it wasn’t for this hobby, I would never have connected with him. And so anytime I’m up buying stuff from him, buying wood from him, we, uh, we talk about peacebuilding, we talk about living in, uh, adjust relationship with the earth and what that means, uh, and then how to, uh, how does this, that we’re living in help us when we’re working with wood, how does it help us to be better peacebuilders or how does it help us to be better, uh, or to exhibit, I should say, live into healthier relationships with the earth. And so it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s been fascinating and I love it. I, uh, it’s kind of taken a, a, uh, uh, a life of its own. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I wish I had more time to work in it, but I take what I can get right now.

patience:
Of course!
All right. Do you have anything else you’d like to add as we close here that we may not have covered?

Matt:
I think the only thing that I can think of off the top of my head is, is this idea of, you know, when we, when we help create, uh, trauma-informed and resilient systems, uh, so view a classroom as a system, or view our institution here at 91����Ƶ, as a system or a view, you know, our community systems and that kind of stuff, uh, when we’re able to create trauma-informed and resilient, uh, systems, uh, my hope is, and I’m seeing it a little bit from, from students that have graduated, or even students that have transferred out of 91����Ƶ into, uh, into another university or college, is that they’re taking these experiences of being trauma-informed and resilient into their own communities, uh, into wherever they’re going. Uh, and, and they’re beginning to, in, in small ways, uh, beginning to shift, uh, systems that hadn’t, haven’t been trauma informed, or, or haven’t focused on, on resilience, uh, into systems that are beginning to, to explore just even a little bit of what that means and how it transforms their systems.

And so, so I’m really excited, uh, as, as I hear more stories, uh, from students and, and, and other people around us, we get connected, uh, to, uh, to other other places, other universities, other, uh, communities that are really trying to, to look at trauma, uh, trauma and resilience, uh, and, and learn to live in healthier ways, uh, that is beginning to transform places. Yeah. I just look forward to, uh, um, uh, what that looks like, because it, it, it comes out of that context.

So it’s not exactly here what it looks like here, but it, it transforms into something in their own context. Uh, and it’s just beautiful to hear and see, and know that, that students see this as, as something that is very impactful and very valuable that they want to take it wherever they go. Uh, and so, so I love to hear those stories. I love to, uh, to hear that in, in, in their lives, but also I love to hear that other communities are beginning this journey, uh, and, uh, and are really trying to find better ways of being together. Uh, and so, yeah, so that’s, that would probably be the last thing that I would say is, as you know, I’m always left with hope. Uh, I’m always left with hope.

patience:
It’s, it’s a pretty key ingredient.

Matt:
For sure.

patience:
Well, thank you so much, Matt, yeah. I’ve enjoyed talking with you.

Matt:
And I’ve enjoyed it deeply.

patience:
Well, have a good evening and we’ll see you around.

Matt:
All right. Sounds good.
Thanks.

patience:
All right. You’re welcome.

Outro music:
[Outro music begins to play]

patience:
All the music you hear on this podcast has been composed by the one and only Luke Mullet. Our audio mixing engineer extraordinaire is Steven Angelo, and I’m the podcast executive producer, audio recording engineer, editor and host, Patience Kamau. As you are able, please remember to subscribe, rate and review this podcast so that other peacebuilders may find it. We’ll be back with a new episode in two weeks. Thanks so much for listening and join us again. Next time.

Outro music:
[Outro music plays till end]

Dr. Carolyn Stauffer, featured in this episode, speaks about about her work in the fields of sexual harm and trauma.  Before returning to 91����Ƶ –her alma mater– as a professor, she lived in South Africa for 16 years. While there, she recounts working at a rape crisis center in the mid-1990s, where she saw a “hierarchy of identities” among the survivors of sexual assault.

Race “was the primary sort of frame of identity that was given the most recognition … after race then class became an issue,” Stauffer explained, especially among those from mixed race communities. In contrast, gender-based issues weren’t much considered in the national discourse on oppression, all while “Johannesburg was considered the rape capital of the world.”

When Stauffer joined the 91����Ƶ (91����Ƶ) faculty in 2010, she thought seriously and prayed about how to serve those experiencing intimate partner violence and gender-based violence in the Shenandoah Valley. She started the Silent Violence Project, in which Stauffer and a team (which included Center for Justice and Peacebuilding students) worked with women who were homeless, undocumented, or in the Beachy Amish communities. 

“What were the unique risks that they faced based on their identity?” Stauffer asked. “What were the resistance strategies that they used to push back against abusers … what were their resilience strategies?”

At the time, Stauffer was co-director of 91����Ƶ’s MS in biomedicine program. She wanted to ensure that the future healthcare providers under her tutelage would be sensitized to sexual harm survivors, so she held a symposium – with a cadre of conservative Mennonite survivors teaching her students. Many of the survivors hadn’t completed the eighth grade.

“I flipped the script and basically positioned them as the experts to train my biomedicine students sexual harm and trauma. And so it was this total change of power dynamics,” Stauffer explained.

Despite her vast expertise in this field, Stauffer still welcomes learning from others. She recalls how, after one symposium, someone asked her about the intersection between sexual violence and neurodiversity – for example, a survivor who may have ADHD or autism. 

“We have to think beyond just one particular sort of static definition of who that survivor or who that harm doer is. I think that’s part of taking the field forward, is including an understanding of the intersection of identity and sexual harm.”

Guest

Dr. Carolyn Stauffer

Dr. Carolyn Stauffer is a consultant and educator in the fields of sexual harm and trauma. As Associate Professor she has served as co-director of 91����Ƶ’s Biomedicine program as well taught in CJP’s Women’s Peacebuilding Leadership program. Carolyn’s passion for people has taken her to 34 countries and she has conducted trainings on three continents. She has lived and worked in the Middle East (17 years), and South Africa (16 years). In Virginia, USA, Stauffer has trained DOJ personnel, Title IX officers, and Sexual Assault Response Team members. She is the founder of the Silent Violence Project and has served on boards working with HIV/AIDs, the local chapter of UNESCO, and has collaborated on five competitive federal and local grants. Stauffer has 20 years of domestic and international practice experience focusing on enhancing survivor resilience through a strengths-based approach. Working through the dual lenses of advocacy and post-traumatic growth, one of Stauffer’s life goals is to amplify voices of healing justice.

Transcript

Carolyn:
But I think more recently the definition of sexual harms has expanded. And what I mean by that is, you know, historically, and this is something that, uh, we should all be ashamed of –historically harm, sexual harm against women’s bodies was actually considered, um, a dignity violation between two men, either the father of the, of the woman or the husband of the woman, and then somebody that had perpetrated that harm.

Theme music:
[Theme music begins and fades into back ground]

patience:
Hi everybody, happy Wednesday to you!
Welcome back to peacebuilder, a Conflict Transformation podcast by the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding.
My name is patience kamau and our guest this episode is:

Carolyn:
Carolyn Stauffer, associate professor of applied social sciences at 91����Ƶ.

patience:
Dr. Carolyn Stauffer is a consultant and educator in the fields of sexual harm and trauma. As Associate Professor she has served as co-director of 91����Ƶ’s Biomedicine program as well taught in CJP’s Women’s Peacebuilding Leadership program. Carolyn’s passion for people has taken her to 34 countries and she has conducted trainings on three continents. She has lived and worked in the Middle East for 17 years, and South Africa 16. In Virginia, Stauffer has trained DOJ personnel, Title IX officers, and Sexual Assault Response Team members. She is the founder of the Silent Violence Project and has served on boards working with HIV/AIDs, the local chapter of UNESCO, and has collaborated on five competitive federal and local grants.

Stauffer has 20 years of domestic and international practice experience focusing on enhancing survivor resilience through a strengths-based approach. Working through the dual lenses of advocacy and post-traumatic growth, one of Stauffer’s life goals is to amplify voices of healing justice.

Theme music:
[Theme music fades back in and plays till end]

patience:
So, um, Carolyn, tell me what your journey was to 91����Ƶ, and your connections to CJP through that.

Carolyn:
I would venture to say that my journey to 91����Ƶ resonates with something that I heard in the mid 1990s. It was an address by professor Cornell West, and he talked about two things, “roots” and “routes” — “roots” in terms of R O O T S — the germinating tendrils that come from the ground in terms of our place of origin and how that connects with who we are. And then he talks about “routes” as in R-O-U-T-E-S, in other words, the sort of map that we take through life.

And I think my journey to 91����Ƶ started with the R-O-O-T-S those “roots” of origin. I had spent…my parents were overseas workers for 30 years in the Middle East and so I had learned Hebrew and some Arabic as my sort of languages of origin, even before learning to read and write English, and so I came to university at Eastern Mennonite College, which it was at the time, and it was a bit of a culture shock patience, it was, uh, something sort of extra ordinary for me. I remember I was staying in the Northlawn Residence Hall, and the first time it snowed, I came running down in my pajamas and I was like screaming and hollering –and this was just like these white puffs of “what” that were descending from the sky.

And so, um, returning to 91����Ƶ, or, uh, it was from EMC to 91����Ƶ as a professor was one of those sort of homecomings in some ways. So that’s where it fits into that sense of “roots,” as in this was something that was embedded deep within me. In terms of what Cornell West talks about R O U T E S that “map,” after spending a decade and a half in the Middle East, uh, after I got married and spent some time in Richmond, Virginia, we went for 16 years to South Africa. And at that time there was sort of a burgeoning within me of interest around the issue of women’s advancements.

And I remember reading an article that was actually a chapter by Cynthia Cockburn, and it was about how violence is uniquely engendered. And I saw all around me, these sort of aftermaths of apartheid and how women were experiencing in many regards, the, the unwaged labor that they were contributing to the economy and the way that they were working in homes or as domestic laborers and were underpaid for that –I saw that aspect.

I also saw how, um, that many, in many ways, as, as men, uh, black men in the South African context were, were gaining political opportunities, women were still in the wake of that. They weren’t on the same page with that at the same level. And then also, um, women coming across the border from Zimbabwe, oftentimes needing to use, uh, their, their sexual labor power as a sort of transactional kind of, um, uh, sort of a way to make a life in the aftermath of, of displacement. And so all these experiences around women and how violence becomes embodied in their lived experiences, um, in South Africa, when I returned as a professor to 91����Ƶ, I was looking for those places in the university where that would resonate.

And two of the places specifically were, one was the emergence of 91����Ƶ’s biomedicine program, where I could begin to research and think about how embodied trauma becomes and what are the manifestations of that. And then the second thing that was exciting at that time, and a shout out to Jan Jenner who was giving leadership, uh, to this program at CJP specifically, was the Women’s Peacebuilding Leadership Program.

And this was for women really from all around the globe, but many were coming from East Africa, from Kenya, from Somalia, from, um, the Pacific from Fiji, and these women were really taking the conversation around women’s advancements forward. And so being a part of that “WPLP” Women’s Peacebuilding Leadership Program at CJP felt like it connected to where I was coming from and what I had experienced very much in Southern Africa. So again, that was part of the sort of map route, as well as the, um, germinating roots that were yeah, sort of rising up and surfacing within me.

patience:
Yeah, wow-wow. That’s fantastic. That’s fantastic.
Um, so you’ve mentioned, um, women’s empowerment or at least awareness, and your area of research is in the field of sexual harms.
What is that? What are sexual harms? How would you define that?

Carolyn:
Sure. Sexual harms, I think, have traditionally been thought of as in terms of assault, um, against people’s bodies and, um, taking away from the dignity and integrity of the choices that people have over their bodies, um, that autonomy, that sense of, of bodily integrity that people have.

But I think more recently the definition of sexual harms has expanded. And what I mean by that is, you know, historically, and this is something that, uh, we should all be ashamed of –historically harm, sexual harm against women’s bodies was actually considered, um, a dignity violation between two men, either the father of the, of the woman or the husband of the woman, and then somebody that had perpetrated that harm.

But as that has shifted to, you know, more from a legal standpoint, the plaintiff and the defendant, you know, in terms of, you know, the, the actual man and, and, and woman usually, but it could, you know, harm women against women in terms of sexual harm, again, or even across the gender spectrum. But now it’s extending beyond just the two parties to include a third party. And what I mean by that is, uh, Jamie Abrams writes this fascinating article about the, the three-legged stool. And what she says is that there’s been an expansion to also include the responsibility of institutions.

So it’s not just the person that’s harmed and the person that has caused the harm, but what have been the roles of institutions either in terms of silencing the harm, being complacent with the harm, or the erasure of the harm. And so that third leg of the stool, and in legal terms, it’s actually called tort law where you are looking at redress for injuries done. And oftentimes the negligence of institutions has been a key factor. In fact, there’s a lot of research that suggests that when institutions are silent around issues of sexual harm, it, it increases the level of trauma that survivors experience.

So when we’re talking about sexual harm, it’s, it’s much broader than just the interaction between two individuals. It also includes the surrounding communities and how they do or don’t respond.

patience:
…to it. Yeah, that’s the culture. Um, when you said earlier that, that we need to repent for, you know, how we’d always looked at this and that it was harm between two, the two men, obviously that’s major patriarchy, and [chuckles] there are parts of the world where that’s still true, you know, uh, where a sexual harm is performed against a woman, and then she is the one to blame…and so she’s gotta be stoned or whatever it is “taken out of the equation,” because yeah, that just brought to mind –do you have thoughts about how societies respond to that? Punish the women; which actually then also crosses over to sex work and how the criminal-legal system deals with that, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts about that.

Carolyn:
Yes, absolutely. So going back to my work with the Women’s Peacebuilding Leadership Program, there was this crystallizing moment for me that I remember when one of the women shared that even in the face of, um, Resolution 1325 of the UN, which was supposed to augment and increase women’s safety, particularly in conflict zones, she said, this is what she said. She said, “you know, the most unsafe place for me is in my own home and in my own work space,” which was fascinating because we always think of those external sites as the places of hazard in situations of armed conflict and war, rape and so on.

But she said my home place and my workplace, and this goes back, patience, to what you were saying around the culture of our, our employment, um, and, and the cultures that surround, um, how we view the relations between genders in the workplace. And she said that even, you know, working in a very quote-unquote progressive institution, she felt like so many times there were, uh, microaggressions that were happening, and that sort of very, the negative side of, of patriarchy was emerging and the hierarchy that accompanies that was emerging in the workspace.

And so, again, this is an expansion of the definition of sexual harm, much more broadly to think about, um, “how are we navigating power within our home and, um, professional spaces as well?”

patience:
How, how does…yeah, what are your insights into how this overlaps with sex work?

Carolyn:
Right, so I think sex work has traditionally gotten a very bad rap, but, you know, I would venture to say that, um, really it’s about the choices that people have, or don’t have, I believe it’s, it’s bell hooks that talks about, um, oppression as a lack of choices. And so as we think of sex work, um, we want to think about the protections of the sex workers. We also want to think about whole industries that are propagating and sort of underwriting, um, the commodification of bodies and, and how people become trapped within those equations.

You know, when we commodify bodies, and this is the whole porn industry as well, we’re essentially consuming and discarding consuming and discarding, I believe it was Karl Polanyi [from his book “The Great Transformation”] that talks about when our consumption is dis-embedded from the common wheel, from the good of the collective, that’s when it becomes destructive.

And so in arenas where people are consuming portions of each other without, you know, the person who is engaged in that, both parties having agency decision-making power, that’s when I think the negative sort of externalities of this show up. Um, patience, you mentioned my research specifically, and my research really has followed me throughout life. When I was working in South Africa, one of my observations was that there was sort of a hierarchy of identities that showed up in terms of the decade and a half that I was there.

And so we came in 1994, I had a two and a four year old, and I worked at a rape crisis center where we dealt with survivors of sexual assault and, advocacy work in that regard. And one of my observations was that over that time, um, really race was the most important issue. This was 1994, the first sort of emancipatory all-inclusive elections were happening. Uh, president Nelson Mandela was, uh, you know, had a leadership post within the government of National Unity, and so race was the card that was, was the primary sort of frame of identity that was given the most recognition.

And then across time as there were shifts in the economic structure, certainly there was, there were, there are still huge long-term legacies of the capitalist and, um, sort of neoliberal system within South Africa, and it, because it is so entrenched, but after race, then sort of class became an issue as you know, um, the, the communities that, um, identified themselves as “colored,” mixed-race communities said, “Hey, we’re not black enough in this new, um, you know, political spectrum, but we’re not white enough either,” and so “where do we fit into the enfranchisement that the government is handing out?” And so class became a central organizing factor.

patience:
Yeah, so race and class and gender…?

Carolyn:
Exactly. But gender was last. And so, you know, in other words, um, Johannesburg was considered the rape capital of the world. And so amidst this sort of hierarchy of identities that were surfacing within the national discourse, you know, I wanted to say, “Hey, don’t forget about how gender plays out and how so much of our conflict system is engendered,” as I mentioned. So when I came back to, um, the Shenandoah Valley, one of the things that I did is I spent time in prayer and fasting and just saying, “God, what do I need to know about the invisible forms of violence that are here in this space? Where, where are the points of erasure, where are the sort of social geographies of, of violence that are hidden?”

And this is where I, um, started thinking about how to race class and gender show up in terms of intimate partner violence and gender based violence in Harrisonburg, in the broader corridor of the Shenandoah Valley. And so what I started doing research on, and, and just a shout out to some of my associates that worked with me on this, uh…

patience:
…is this the Silent Violence Project?

Carolyn:
Yes. Um, the, and just the verbiage of that patience “Silent Violence Project,” and so really it was about those hidden locations of violence where disproportionate and dis, uh, you know, um, disproportionate amounts of violence, um, resided precisely because of the erasure that was happening. So in the Silent Violence Project, I was collaborating with people like, uh, Claudia Cubas, um, [Cristian] David [Fonseca] Quezada, Katia Ornelas, Ema Billings, Jennifer Merritt, Elmer Malibiran, uh, Woré�� Ndiaye and Bridget Mullins. And we as a group sat down and with community partners and started asking the question from service providers, “who are you seeing and who is experiencing the highest levels of intimate partner violence?”

And so three communities surfaced, and they really fit with this race class and gender sort of, um, frame. In terms of, um, class, we started having conversations with, uh, women who were, um, experienced home…experiencing…survivors, specifically of sexual harm, who were experiencing homelessness. How do the dynamics of, uh, residential instability and the relationships that are missed or experienced within that space impact on, um, experiences of sexual harm? So, for instance, in, in, in that, if you’re looking at the issue of class, how does, um, you know, economic co-dependence on an abuser mean that you can’t exit that relationship? So all you can do is move your body to a new space, which is why those women were homeless, right?

So class was showing up in incredibly profound ways. And then in terms of the bigger rubric of, of race, and I use that term very loosely here, here, I’m talking about, uh, political and, and national citizenship and religion as well. And a lot of our new immigrant communities, how were they experiencing sexual harm, uh, specific to their identities? And so we started, um, talking with some of the, the local Catholic church and some of the service providers, and it was undocumented Latinas that we ended up sort of focusing on as our second group of respondents.

So homeless women with regards to class, with regards to race, it was undocumented Latinas. And from that group, we really found that it was the negative impacts of state interventions, that risked deportation, detection, detention that became…so in other words, these were respondents in the Silent Violence Project that didn’t access formal police structures and formal hospital and health structures. So again, their experiences of sexual harm, they had to carry on their own backs without experiencing the support services that were available to other population groups.

And then lastly, the, the group that we focused on for gender, we worked with, um, conservative-plain community members from the Beachy Amish community, and, um, and here we felt like the way that gender was narrated within the religious tradition did not allow women to exit abusive relationships because of the sanctions around divorce. So again, you know, these women were trapped in unique ways, race, class, and gender was showing up. And, and, and these, you know, really it was about people’s identities and how they show up in experiences of sexual harm and disproportionately make them vulnerable to the systems and structures in their lives. So that is one of the projects, the Silent Violence Project that I’ve been carrying for for over a decade now.

patience:
Yeah. It’s still ongoing?

Carolyn:
Yes, it is. In terms of some of the research that’s, um, I’m picking up on, um, let me just, uh, let me just pick up on, on a couple of, of voices here. I want to bring in some of the voices of the women, we, this was a, um, a study that was really essentially a story web, where we collected life stories and patience, we gathered more than 400 pages of transcripts. And this was like a treasure trove of these sacred stories from these women’s lives, from these survivors’ lives.

And I remember with one of the homeless women, women, what we worked with was not only just the rubric of race, class, and gender, but we worked with three specific ideas that surfaced in the narratives of these women, and that was, um, what were the unique risks that they faced based on their identity? What was the, what were the resistance strategies that they use to push back against abusers, as well as, um, sort of structural violence that they were experiencing as survivors, so risk, resistance, and then also what were their resilience strategies?

And so with the, um, the homeless women that I’m thinking of right now, in my mind, she talked about how, whereas state structures like social workers, pathologized her homelessness, her dislocation –she said that was her, her survival strategy. That was her actually resilience mechanism.

And so she said, you know, I would, she said this, let me just, um, just use her words to describe this. She says, “I even made it into a TV show –Wayne County’s ‘most wanted,’ it was about the time that John was doing that…what was it called America’s Most Wanted? It was comical. I got all these emergency phone calls; mama was a calling and saying, ‘they had you on Wayne County’s most wanted.’ And I said, ‘you bullshit me –for one frickin’ gram of Coke?’ I said, ‘are you serious?’ And she’s like, ‘yep.’

But guess what? I’m like, ‘no, what’s the surprise?’ And she says, ‘they don’t have a picture of you –they had a statement saying, you change your style and appearance so much that they can never get an accurate picture,’ which I do. Yes! And I found a hairstylist, my daughter, and she didn’t even know, but I get bored with the look and I change it up, and since I got this drawstring pony tail and a weave and that, I can be dead on near bald and I change it up every day so that I can be whoever I want to be.

patience:
Agency!

Carolyn:
Exactly!

patience:
She reclaims her agency!

Carolyn:
Yeah, yeah. And so these women, you know, whereas we had pathologized their survival strategy, they saw it as an asset. All of my research, patience, has really been working from a strengths-based approach to say, what are the assets that survivors bring to the table? I remember when I was, um, interviewing, um, some of the, um, undocumented Latinas and, and they highlighted the hazards of this threat of deportation. One of them said “I’ve had other experiences of sexual harassment at the workplace with coworkers. I think it’s because I don’t have documents and many people try to humiliate me.

So sometimes I endure all of that humiliation because I do not want to lose my job. That’s the trouble with this country, that no one can defend themselves.” So that was like multiple layers of not only personal harassment in her job site, based on the power disequilibrium of her having undocumented status, therefore not being able to push back, but also the state violence of fearing deportation. So all these levels of violence. And what’s interesting with that particular group was they, um, some of the verbiage that came out with them was “cars, keys, and cash.” And what they essentially did was they use the economic opportunities that they were gaining access to in the workspace as a way to push back.

So cars and, and, uh, you know, conflicts over, over having vehicles, you know, and, and cash, and, and being able to leverage that cash and keys. These were symbols of their advancement, their economic advancements, and that’s how they push back. So their asset, their resilient strategy patience, was really those new economic opportunities that they were gaining.

Transition music:
[Transition music plays]

patience:
That story you just told of, uh, the undocumented person who was being victimized at work, and then couldn’t even…felt trapped in it. Is that what you refer to as uh “polyvictimization” because it’s so many levels that they…yeah, talk about that…what is polyvitimization?

Carolyn:
Yes, polyvictimization. I think the field of trauma more generally has de-historicized, especially from the…has depoliticized and de-historicized, especially in terms of the sort of, um, traditional –and I would venture to say Western and White definition of trauma has personalized it and taken it out of historical context. And when we view people within historical context, we understand that their lived experience is a product of the intersection of so many of their identities. And that intersectional piece is really what polyvictimization is about. Um, polyvictimization is about not just one form of violence, but multiple forms of violence, interacting-intersecting together.

And Kimberlé Crenshaw, um, speaks to this in her writing as well as Patricia Hill Collins, uh, speaks to that as well. She talks about in her 1986 work, she talks about “learning from the outsider within,” as an African American and, and ways of pushing back. And then she revisits that ,Patricia Hill Collins does, in 2016 in her work, “Black Feminist Thought as Oppositional Knowledge.” Uh, patience, one of the things that we wanted to surface within the Silent Violence Project was what were the forms of oppositional knowledge that were surfacing. And, and how were these women pulling, pushing back at the polyvictimization that they were experiencing?

Um, I remember in the third community with the plain community and Amish community members, um, one of the women talked about the hierarchy, the power hierarchies, which was part of the polyvictimization again, in her particular experience, it wasn’t just about the individual abuser, it was about the system and how it protected abusers and silenced the victims. And she says this, “we had a rule book that we lived by that was very strict. It laid down in details our entire lives. I mean, just every detail of our lives –dress, you know, you weren’t allowed to have your elbows showing, lengthy sleeves, big coverings, thick coverings were everywhere! Everything was underneath of that.

And so, yeah, that was our standard, that was the standard by which we lived. And it was as if the abuse was my fault. It was something that I was doing. It was maybe how I was dressing or being seductive or something. And I remember at one point I threatened the guy who was abusing me and he would say, ‘no, no, no, don’t tell.’ And I’d be like, ‘no, I need to say something.’ And he’d say, ‘no, no, I’m sorry,’ as he would stick his hand up my dress! We wore dresses that were so accessible to them all the time –damn dresses!” And it was interesting in that context, dress code, which was essentially to be a distinctive separation between this particular community to identify them as different than the surrounding world dresses, instead of being a location of protection, became a location of predation.

patience:
Oh God. Yeah.

Carolyn:
And so that’s where this whole idea of polyvictimization that you’re talking about, shows up.

patience:
Yeah. Yeah. How did the “Oppositional Knowledge” emerge? Like how did that present? How did it, um,…

Carolyn:
Yeah I think, as much as anything, we wanted to follow in the footsteps of a lot of people who have –the sort of ancestors of this work patience– there are many women who have contributed to this field. And I, you know, I think of, uh, uh, Kimberlé Crenshaw’s work in, she, she talks about the “genealogies of experience.” I think that the patriarchy more generally has canonized what is written, but has given less credit to oral traditions and experiential traditions and so that sort of feminist epistemology is so important.

Um, and so gathering these, these stories was a way of canonizing and amplifying these voices. So when you talk about that oppositional, um, knowledge, it was giving it “air time.” And another way that specifically critical race theory, and then LatCrit as well, Latino-LatinX critical race theory has showed up around the conversation of moving from those stock narrations to, um, surfacing the concealed, um, the concealed stories then to the stories of resistance and then to the counter stories. And so by the end of this project, I really felt like these women were in their own business of, of meaning creation. They were generating counter stories.

So they had moved from that erasure to an amplification of their stories, and then, like I said, meaning-making around an oppositional and counter story. And so I remember one woman, you know, she, she ended the whole interview, you know, I said, so, you know, “if you were to tell somebody or a survivor that you had just met, you know, something, what would you, what would your words of advice be to them?” And she says, “well, I’m about preaching and I’m going to have my voice heard.” And it was this sort of emancipatory impulse that was showing up in these, in these women’s voices. And so that counter story tradition, I felt like was being enhanced and, and built on.

Transition music:
[Transition music plays]

patience:
Let’s talk a bit about, um, the work in the field of sexual harms that you have done on campus, on 91����Ƶ campus.
Uh, yeah, tell us about that –what have you done? It’s been a decade, 10 years?

Carolyn:
Sure, yes, it has, and we’re going onto our 11th now. And so, you know, following in the tracks of, I had in, in, um, Southern Africa and in a number of different countries, but specifically in Johannesburg, I had worked in informal settlements where, you know, we didn’t have running water, we didn’t have electricity and so on. And so there was always that sort of entrepreneurial and creativity of the local residents that was the sort of base out of which we worked. Um, uh, the, I call it “ground ‘truething’,” in other words, the truth that emerged came out of the lived, uh, you know, innovative experiences of troubleshooting that people had. And so coming to the Shenandoah Valley and working within 91����Ƶ specifically, I wanted to work with, um, the wisdom that was already resident here.

So the first thing that I did, and as co-director of, of 91����Ƶ’s biomedicine program at that time, I was working with highly educated, um, you know, this was a master’s degree for students that were on their way to medical schools, you know, DO, MD, PA you know, all these different, um, sort of highly recognized, um, locations of potential power over people’s bodies, right? And so one of the things that I wanted to do is to say, how do we send, how do we sensitize these, um, you know, potential caregivers to the aspects around sexual harm and around trauma.

And so the first thing that I did is, and this was what I considered, I sort of had a strategy of micro, mezzo and macro. So I started with that group of biomedicine students, as well as incorporating in some of my undergraduate students as well –and I held a symposium. And what I did was I brought in, remember those three groups that I was working with, you know, the, the, the homeless survivors and the undocumented Latinas, right,…

patience:
…and the conservative Mennonites.

Carolyn:
Yeah, exactly. So I brought in a whole cadre of conservative Mennonite survivors, many of whom didn’t even have hardly an eighth grade education; but I flipped the script and basically positioned them as the experts to train my biomedicine students in sexual harm and in trauma. And so it was this, this total change of power dynamics, you know, again, folks that didn’t have that formal education, but had different locations of wisdom that I really wanted to work with.

And so, so they were the expert knowledge that was, that showed up in the room for this symposium and we worked on the topic of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE), and that way we could also connect it to the biomedicine students and my undergrad students to say, where have you experienced disempowerment and where you have felt profound vulnerability, especially in terms of your own bodily integrity. Um, uh, one of the, um, uh, presentations that I did to the Virginia Association of Sexual Assault and Domestic Violence was called “Body Toxic.” And in that…

patience:
…what is that?

Carolyn:
“Body Toxic” is the idea that sexual harms occur on your body; so you can’t escape your body. You can’t live anywhere else except for in your body. So when your body becomes unsafe, that that impacts the way you view the world and how you experience your own body and live through your own body. So addressing Adverse Childhood Experiences on that micro level, through that symposium, and that flip of power dynamics was really my sort of first attempt to work on campus. Um, and then on the mezzo level, I also wanted to think about how does, uh, sexual harm actually rupture relationships between –not only individuals– but communities and, and how do we deal with that?

And so the second conference that I, um, helped to, to run here was called “Conversations on Sexual Violence: Cultivating Community Resilience.” And I worked with a number of partners on this, Dr. Johonna Turner, Dr. Katie Mansfield, and, and these folks helped to do some of the keynote addresses. Katie, uh, also brought in a colleague of hers who talked about the idea of “moral injury;” moral injury is the idea patience that, um, sexual harm not only violates our bodies, but our consciousnesses.

And so, um, you know, the, the idea of moral injury actually came out of, um, some research that was done on the Vietnam war and how, when soldiers were directed to, um, do massacres on women and children and unprotected populations, that was a form of moral injury. When, for instance, in, in CSA, when child sexual abuse, when you are asked to do something that you know is against your conscience, but the power dynamics of somebody older than you, that has authority over you, so you do these activities, but it violates your conscience. That’s what moral injury is about, and so in this, in this sort of mezzo level conference, I wanted to talk about how do institutions, um, you know, begin to, uh, re-narrate “what does it mean to do community?” And “what does it mean to hold persons that have caused harm accountable?” “What does that look like?” “What is, um, building community and, and keeping resilience in place –what is that gonna look like?”

And then on the macro level, and this was through the help of actually, uh, Dr. Lisa Schirch, um, she advocated for 91����Ƶ bringing in, um, Dr. uh, Father Thomas Doyle from the Catholic tradition. And he had essentially, uh, picked up on, um, uh, blown the whistle on, uh, sexual abuse within the Catholic church. And so the, the, um, symposium that we ran there was, um, entitled “Institutional Harm and Healing: Responding to Sexual Violence.” And here we were essentially looking at how institutions, faith institutions, um, you know, school or university, higher education institutions can be agents of either harm or healing.

And so how do we, how do we work with those dynamics? Um, there’s some fascinating research done by, um, Dr. Jennifer Freyd, and she talks about the idea of institutional betrayal and how, when institutions, like, for instance, right now, Boy Scouts of America, I just heard last week from one of my close colleagues, um, Matthew Tibbles, he sent me an article about how, uh, Boy Scouts of America is actually filing for bankruptcy because of all the cases of sexual abuse that are surfacing now. And so again, institutions have a responsibility to protect their constituencies and when they don’t show up to do that, um, they are agents also, of harm.

patience:
Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s also bringing the, what is it? The gymnastics –American Gymnastics.

Carolyn:
Yes. Yeah. Yes.

patience:
When you were talking about, um, the conference, the symposium you had at the beginning where you had the conservative women, uh, teaching, basically being the teachers of these biomedical…biomedicine?

Carolyn:
Yes, students…

patience:
…students, I thought, how great would that be if it was, if that had happened within the, you know, so we wouldn’t have the Larry Nassars…

Carolyn:
…that’s right…

patience:
…and all those really toxic men who just really exploited these young women and girls.

Carolyn:
Well, and, and that’s where I feel like we, we need to have these conversations around patriarchy and around, you know, it’s interesting Desmond Tutu talks about a variety of types of truth. He talks about, you know, “political truth” certainly, he also talks about “personal truth,” he talks about “experiential truth,” but he also talked about “healing truth.” And, and this is where I like to talk about the concept of, um, you know, “healing justice,” or I would prefer to actually put the one before the other, “just healing,” right?

And in other words, we need to, um, have forums where we address power disequilibriums and, and the whole anti-oppression movement and, and how that fits in with, uh, you know, in other words, these three groups that, uh, I talked about with the Silent Violence Project, they were all trapped within, um, structures that disempowered their exit, you know, for different reasons, but disempowered them from exiting situations of violence.

So, so like you were saying in the sports arena, certainly #MeToo, sports arena, media arena, music arena, um, you know, our, “Hollywood Dame,” the, you know, the, the, the movie industry is full of these “casting couch” kinds of situations. And that goes back to what I was saying about what that, um, Women’s Peacebuilding Leadership Program participant told me. She said, you know, “I feel most unsafe in my work and in my home.” And so I think that as we look at, at, at women’s advancements really across time, um, we’re realizing that we need to keep taking space, you know, not just the suffrage movement and political representation, which mind you was very highly racialized all around the world right?

patience:
[Laughs] Very much so, mm-hm!

Carolyn:
So, you know, there’s that whole conversation too, women’s political emancipation and still women are not making…there’s no equity or parity around, uh, you know, purchase power in terms of, uh, women being paid equitably, right? So that’s the economic sphere, but then also the social sphere, um, patience, in our intimate relationships, why are those still locations where, where people feel profoundly vulnerable and structurally, um, you know, there are gaps and holes that allow for these forms of violence to occur.

patience:
You mentioning the suffrage movement that was very, very racialized, um, and speaking about women taking space in these sorts of areas immediately brings Ida B. Wells to my mind, because she refused to be relegated, you know, was it a women’s conference? Where was it in New York or Chicago? I don’t remember, but they said, no, we can’t really include Black women, and she said, well, you know, I’m showing up anyway!

Carolyn:
That’s right!

patience:
Such courageous women!

Carolyn:
Yeah, and that’s where I feel like, and here I draw on, on really a clarion voice for this, the work of Dr. Johonna Turner in the, in the field of Transitional Justice. It’s not just about restoring justice as if justice can be, you know, restored to how it was. It never is “restored” to how it previously was. It was, you know, we’re always moving forward, but what Transitional Justice does is it really does “colorize justice,” and that’s part of, of Dr. Turner’s work is…and obviously the work of, of historically people like Ida B. Wells, um, and her journalistic influence. In other words, she was a woman that amplified the stories of Black women and their experiences specifically, but more recently, even the work of somebody like Mimi Kim, who talks about . In other words, how does the prison industrial complex actually, um, you know, how is that an instrument of oppression for persons of color more generally, but also its impacts on –specifically African-American women, Latino women and so on.

So, and the, the, the racial profiling that happens –all of these, you know, the, the white feminism of the turn of the century in the U.S., in terms of the suffrage movement was really, um, in many regards, a silencing of anything but white feminism. And so the transitional justice movement is so much more of an expansion of that emancipatory, um, impulse and voice, and the representation! Representation is so key; and here patience, I really draw on the work of James C. Scott. He talks about how, you know, it, you know, at the, during the Marxian sort of revolutions around the world, we thought of these mass mobilizations, everybody coming together and so on –James C. Scott, um, you talks about the, the “weapons of the weak” or the “weapons of the peasantry” is really about pressing back and opposition in your own sphere. You won’t, and you won’t always have the, the leisure and the opportunity to mobilize, um, with person, you know, maybe outside of your geographic area. So start your revolution at home, right.

patience:
Where you are!

Carolyn:
Exactly. Um, you know, in other words, the whole, you know, “the revolution will not be televised.” Well, we start in our locations and certainly Arab Spring is an example of that, how technology and media, they were starting in these specific locations, and then the wildfire spread, …

patience:
…then it becomes transnational –it creates a transnational movement.

Carolyn:
Yeah, that’s right.

patience:
Yeah, yeah.

Transition music:
[Transition music plays]

patience:
How do you see the field of Sexual Harms shifting across time?

Carolyn:
Well, I think, you know, some of the things that you’ve actually picked up on, um, I think are key here. So the role of institutions, um, I think is, is really, really important; and so looking at the policies, the procedures, the structures, and this really draws me to my more recent work with a number of colleagues, um, Dr. Joy Kreider, Rhoda Miller, Rachel Roth Sawatzky, Ram Bhagat. We joined together to work on a STAR for Sexual Harms, uh, which is “Strategies for Trauma Awareness and Resilience,” which was essentially a, um, a manual that was created, which you can find online.

But through that work, we really wanted to look at, you know, not only just the individual harms that are embodied again, you know, Katie Mansfield talks about the embodiment of sexual harm and our trauma more generally, and “Re-friending the Body” and certainly Bessel van der Kolk talks about “The Body Keeps [the] Score,” right? So it does play out on our bodies. Um, but the, the field of sexual harms more generally as we move to the future, I think we also have to talk about the impacts on community and Rhoda Miller in our sexual…STAR for Sexual Harms manual does a fantastic job of surfacing the conversation around attachment and how attachment is one of the most key elemental impacts we have as we, you know, join humanity, it’s our attachment to our primary caregivers and so on. And so when those attachments are severed or ruptured through sexual harm, that has probably got to be one of the most egregious forms of violence. And so how do we work at reattachment within community?

And then also, um, Rachel picked up on this, Roth Sawatzky, and Ram Bhagat as well, um, picking up on the idea of “institutions and cultures,” Ram addressed that. And, and Rachel and her piece, her chapter of the manual talked about “policies and procedures.” So I think as we think about, you know, taking the field of, of Sexual Harm forward, we have to address this, not just individually, we begin there, and this is where we’re, um, Dr. Joy Kreider began in the manual is to say, “what are the body impacts?” You know, body beliefs, behaviors, that’s where we started. And then it, you know, in the second chapter, we looked at issues of how does this play out socially with privilege, power, positionality, patriarchy, and, you know, and, and, and so on.

And so we move through the manual, working from that micro to the macro, but including all these sort of whole system approaches, you know, I think even, patience, the field of trauma more generally has tended to (a) pathologized people’s, you know, strategies of, of resilience, you know, um, self-care strategies, oftentimes, uh, you know, in other words, I need to take withdrawal in order to, you know, self-care, but then that withdrawal is seen as somehow a negative thing, you know, even psychological dissociation, which is a strategy to shut-off the pain, is seen as mental health pathology, right? So I think, you know, we, as we move forward, and the other thing that I would say is, so, so whole system, um, you know, a systemic understanding of sexual harm is important.

And then what you brought up around, polyvictimization the intersecting pieces of identity and how those show up in terms of sexual harm. Like, for instance, I remember after doing a symposium at 91����Ƶ and here, I had just returned from a sabbatical and, and was connecting with some of the work that –incredibly innovative work that’s being done in New Zealand, as well as in Ireland– and, um, I remember walking down the stairs of, uh, the, um, of my office building and somebody came up to me and they said, they said this to me, they said, “you know, something you didn’t mention in this, um, in this manual, you didn’t give it as much airtime was what about neuro-diverse communities?”

In other words, people with, um, what has traditionally been thought of as disabilities and, and, and, you know, cognitive differentiation and differences, and, um, you know, how do you address sexual harm in those types of contexts and for those communities? So, uh, you know, again, we have to think beyond just one particular sort of static definition of who that, you know, survivor or who that harm doer is. Um, and so I think that’s part of taking the field forward is, is including an understanding of the intersection of identity and sexual harm.

patience:
Yeah. Yeah.
So how do, how do fields like trauma awareness deeper theologize, um, those coping responses that you talked about?

Carolyn:
Yeah, well, this is where I feel like there’s also a spiritual component. Um, you know, uh, the, the, the best trauma literature and, and here, you know, even the work of, for instance, Renee Linklater in “Decolonizing Trauma Work” and, and a number of the more recent pieces that have come out, they consider people’s worldviews, and their, their sort of the spirituality that they bring as an asset. Um, and so that trauma awareness, in other words, you’re aware of your frame of reference. Let me just use an example here. I remember when I was in South Africa, there was an older gentleman that had done me, considerable harm, personally, professionally and so on. And I, I would dream about him. I, you know, this, this was something that just lived in my head, patience.

And then, um, I was at a professional conference –it was down in Cape Town, actually, there’s some important people there, you know, the mayor of Cape Town, which is no insignificantly, you know, sized city, you know, and was there. And I saw this man walk in and I, you know, the first thing that flew into my mind was “Carolyn do a, you know, do a public exposé, of this man and what he did to you,” you know, and then I looked at him and he was just so pathetic looking. He was so shriveled and, and sad and toxic.

And, and I had this, then the second brainwave that just hit me was “actually, you don’t need to do that, he’s already the living representation of that.” And, and so I didn’t say anything that day and I went home that night and I told my kids, and I told my husband, I said, I have gained my power back. And it was my, my spiritual worldview of not having to continue that cycle of violence. I could step out of it; that made me the most powerful. And this is where, and again, I don’t want to cheapen the idea of forgiveness by suggesting that there aren’t systems and structures that need to be aligned with equity, don’t get me wrong. But my personal ethic of forgiveness was the biggest gift I gave myself. And that was what freed me. And that was what allowed me to take my power back.

patience:
Yeah, mm. That transitions well into…I’d be very curious if you could tell us, um, what your spiritual resonance is, uh, what does this mean to you? How does it feed your soul, uh, to do, to have dedicated all this time and research and effort into Sexual Harms? How has that manifested in you?

Carolyn:
Yeah, well, the first thing it does is, patience, I have, um, you know, in reclaiming my own body, um, I love to dance and I…that is one place and I, and I dance in worship too, and I dance for cheer and I dance just to party and I dance because it’s a representation of life and a celebrative, um, sort of form of the use of my body. And it can so often be done collectively. You know, I remember, um, there’s the one story of, um, you know, women that were, um, coming from a very Western context to a more Southern hemisphere context, and the Western women were saying, um, Oh, they have so much problems with depression and this and that and the other, and these women from the Southern hemisphere –I remember one of them specifically saying, “well, obviously you don’t dance around the fire enough!” [Both laugh]

patience:
[Laughing] Obviously!

Carolyn:
…[laughter continues] and it was this, you know “aha!” moment of how, when we, um, reinhabited our bodies in constructive ways, it is profoundly emancipatory. And so in terms of the spiritual component of that, I, you know, I, I feel like there is a template for that. You know, even in my understanding as a follower of Christ, I see Christ as that embodiment, right ,of God in our midst. So God understood enough about bodies and that bodies matter to have an embodied representation, that incarnational presence.

And so in my work with this, I want to be a part of that story of an incarnational sort of presence and a presence of solidarity. That’s what I see, you know, “God embodied on earth” is about solidarity. It’s about somebody who was here to feel it, do it, and to be physically present with it.

patience:
“God with us” –Immanuel!

Carolyn:
Exactly, exactly! So that, that piece of it really, really resonates with me. And then the other piece of it that I think sort of builds on my spiritual journey is, you know, in 1 John 4:8, you know, in the Christian tradition, in the New Testament, it talks about “God is love.” And so how can I be an embodied version of God and love, or God’s love? In other words, there are different forms of quote-unquote love in this, in this world and, and, and as I mentioned earlier, sometimes that, uh, “love making” can be very, uh, appropriating or extractive, but how can I be an agent of God’s love, which is really such a higher definition of, of that love.

And I, I read a definition of leadership recently, and it talked about the leader, or the best leaders are the ones that are the, are willing to be the first to lay down their lives on behalf of others. And what that means is that you, you lead through service, you lead through, um, demonstrating –and Gandhi said that as well, “be the change that you want to see in this world,” you know, be that embodied, um, example of solidarity and, and, and really, um, what I call “critical hope” because it brings in the elements of critical theory to navigate power relations and to understand them, and to call them out, to speak truth to power, but also to, um, allow for that, that healing impulse to surround those processes.

patience:
Mm, mm-hm. Um, I’m curious, um, so we’re recording this on March 11th, uh, and earlier this week, I wonder if you saw it, but I –it was covered briefly on the NewsHour– that the World Health Organization had released this statistic, um, that 1 in 3 women in the world (!) [incredulous chuckle] have experienced some form of sexual harm. That was noteworthy to me. I wonder, what did you think about that? 1 in 3 is –that’s a third of all women in the world. That is a huge, huge number. What are your thoughts?

Carolyn:
Yeah, well, let me just say that. That’s where I feel like structural interventions and policy responses are key. In other words, we cannot just talk about this in the corridors, you know, in the bedroom or in the corridors of, of, you know, our, our homes and professional lives. We need to bring this to the Capitol Hills, you know, when some of the, the, the worst offenders in, in, in regards to sexual harms against women are having incredibly powerful positions within our political structures. You know, where do we, how do we query that? And we query that by, by looking at how policy –and this is back to [UN] resolution 1325– what are the protections for women nationally, trans-nationally, globally that need to be put into place?

Obviously, you know, we need to conscientize, and there’s a lot of education that needs to happen, but you know, what patience, I’m hopeful, like for instance, the, um, the, you know, um, the whole campaign around, uh, drunk-driving and, um, actually calling that out was really effective, um, in terms of changing legislation in this country, you know, the legislation around tobacco use, seatbelts and all of that, there are, if you look at it even from a public health perspective, there have been a lot of campaigns that have changed, um, sort of the public discourse and perceptions around things that are harmful.

And I really do have hope and believe that we can –and this was one of the other grants that I got– “change the narrative,” the title of the grant was “Change the Narrative on Sexual Harm.” I believe we can, patience. And so I’m profoundly hopeful that even in the face of the statistics that you were talking about, that there is possibility for transformation, and yes, that, you know, as Desmond Tutu said, that is not just a political process, that is not just a political, um, sort of engagement, but it has to be a personal truth as well.

patience:
Thank you!
I, yeah, coming here toward the end, is there anything that you would like to talk about that we haven’t covered that comes to mind?

Carolyn:
Well, let me just close with these words, and this comes from, and here, I just want to, um, note the work of Dr. Fania Davis, who is really a Civil Rights activist, a Restorative Justice, um, practitioner, but also a Transitional Justice sort of doula. Doula is like a midwife, right, you know, helping with the birthing processes. And, and let me just close with her words. She says, “let’s walk this land, inhabit this space, not with discord, devastation, and domination, but instead with healing, wholeness and holiness.”

patience:
Thank you for taking the time to do this Carolyn, I am so grateful!

Carolyn:
Thank you for sharing the space! patience, let me just say that I consider it such a privilege to, um, be in this, um, digital environment, this online environment with you as a host; your skills come through as a podcast host and so I feel literally, and figuratively, very privileged to have shared this time with you.

patience:
Oh, [grateful/humbled chuckle] thank you, thank you so much.

patience:
Dr. Stauffer is the author of “Sexual Harms: Strategies for Trauma Awareness and Resilience,” “” and “.”

Outro music:
[Outro music begins and fades into background]

patience:
All the music you hear on this podcast has been composed by the one and only, , our audio mixing engineer extraordinary, is . And, I am the podcast executive producer, audio recording engineer, editor and host patience kamau. As you are able, please remember to subscribe, rate and review this podcast so that other peacebuilders may find it. We’ll be back with a new episode in two weeks. Thanks so much for listening and join us again, next time.

Outro music:
[Outro music fades into foreground and plays till end]

Dr. Tim Seidel has played an integral role in the fields of strategic peacebuilding, global studies and interfaith engagement at 91����Ƶ. He brings practical experience in all three fields, having lived and worked in Palestine, Israel, and served as Mennonite Central Committee’s director for peace and justice ministries in the United States.

Seidel shares his journey to 91����Ƶ, where he has helped to start an undergraduate global studies major and an interfaith studies minor. He also teaches graduate students at the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding and serves as director of 91����Ƶ’s Center for Interfaith Engagement. 

Seidel brings four topics to the podcast conversation and unpacks them in discussion with Kamau: 

• transnational and anti-colonial connectivity and the politics of solidarity, 
• critical political economy,
•  violence, non-violence and resistance, and 
• religion, interfaith, and the post-secular in politics, peacebuilding, and development. 

The conversation includes probing questions, ranging throughout hundreds of years of global history, touches on popular culture and current events, and follows a critical thread of colonialism into each of the topics.

In a nutshell: “How do we pay attention to the world that we live in today and its colonial constitutions? How do the colonial legacies persist into the present and what are the ways in which people inhabiting this world are struggling and resisting?”

If you’re one of those listeners who thrills to the intellectual “chase,” you will want to come to this 55-minute podcast with some paper and a pen to jot down words and names for further investigation, including the several indigenous and BIPOC scholars, authors, political figures and activists who are referenced.

Many of the ideas and explorations discussed in the episode are explored in Seidel’s scholarly works and associated presentations. For a full list and links, visit his 91����Ƶ webpage.

Seidel previously taught at American University and Lancaster Theological Seminary. He holds an MTS from Wesley Theological Seminary and a PhD from the School of International Service at American university in Washington DC. At Messiah College, he earned a BA in biochemistry with minors in cultural anthropology and mathematics.

Guest

Dr. Timothy Seidel

Dr. Tim Seidel teaches courses on peacebuilding, development, and global studies in the Department of Applied Social Sciences and the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding. He also serves as director for the Center for Interfaith Engagement (CIE). Seidel has worked in various development and peacebuilding contexts in North America and the Middle East, including serving for several years with Mennonite Central Committee (MCC), first as peace development worker in Palestine-Israel and then as director for Peace and Justice Ministries in the U.S. Seidel previously taught at American University and Lancaster Theological Seminary. He holds an MTS from Wesley Theological Seminary and a PhD from the School of International Service at American University in Washington, DC.

Transcript

Tim:
That example highlights how those connections and those solidarities emerge and take shape without the permission of the, we’ll say the Metropole or the, sort of the imperial or colonial centers of power in the world today, right? So, oftentimes this idea of permission or this idea of visibility or audibility, right, “if I can’t see it, it’s not happening.” “If I can’t hear it, it’s not, it’s not happening.” And to say, well, let’s, let’s, let’s think about that.

And of course that’s relevant for our justice and peacebuilding too, you know, wherever we are, where we think, “oh, I don’t see this happening or this isn’t happening according to the categories or the language that I understand,” that means that it’s not happening. And to really, really interrogate that, to really question that which, you know, involves some significant humility too, uh, on the parts of both, uh, academics and practitioners.

Theme music:
[Theme music begins and fades into background]

patience:
Hi, everybody happy Wednesday to you! Welcome back to Peacebuilder, a Conflict Transformation podcast by The Center for Justice and Peacebuilding. My name is patience kamau and our guest this episode is:

Tim:
Tim Seidel, assistant professor in the department of Applied Social Sciences and The Center for Justice and Peacebuilding. And, uh, also serve as director of The Center for Interfaith Engagement.

patience:
Dr. Tim Seidel teaches courses on peacebuilding, development, and global studies in the Department of Applied Social Sciences and the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding, here at 91����Ƶ. He also serves as director of the Center for Interfaith Engagement. Seidel has worked in various development and peacebuilding contexts in North America and the Middle East, including serving for several years with Mennonite Central Committee, first as peace development worker in Palestine-Israel and then as director for Peace and Justice Ministries in the U.S.

Seidel previously taught at American University and Lancaster Theological Seminary. He holds an MTS from Wesley Theological Seminary and a PhD from the School of International Service at American University in Washington, DC.

Theme music:
[Theme music fades back in and plays till end].

patience:
So Tim, let’s talk about 91����Ƶ and CJP and CIE at 91����Ƶ.

Tim:
Yeah. Thank you, patience. Um, so I think, you know, when I think about one of the starting places for this journey, um, I go back several years to, when I first interned, at, the Washington office of Mennonite Central committee, where I met Daryl Byler for the first time –who at that point was the director of the Washington office for MCC Mennonite Central committee. Uhm, and later the director of The Center for Justice and Peacebuilding.

That’s sort of, uh, one of the starting points for me that I think about in terms of how did I, how did I get to Harrisonburg, Virginia? How did I get to 91����Ƶ? During that time, I was studying conflict resolution at American University and in particular with Mohammed Abu-Nimer, who knows a lot of folks here at CJP, and so was really formative for me, but I was also studying theology and learning about Mennonites and the Anabaptist tradition. After that, I worked for a number of years, uh, with MCC, uh, ended up working for almost eight years with MCC, uh, first in Palestine, uh, with my wife, Chris, and then also back in the U.S. in their peace and justice ministries, which was a national program department of MCC.

And after I finished up that time, I, uh, went back to American University actually, and got my PhD and worked with Mohammed again, and when I was looking at, when I was finishing up that program, an opportunity opened up at 91����Ƶ that I didn’t imagine I’d end up here, but was, um, really affirmed and encouraged by colleagues and folks like Mohammed and others to, to consider this and to check it out, and, um, I had only visited Harrisonburg Virginia, I think once before. So hadn’t a lot of engagement, had been, didn’t have a huge history or set of even connections here, but pursued it and here we are, uh, what –five, six years later.

patience:
All right. Um, so you teach both in the undergraduate department at 91����Ƶ, which is, I know it as PXD, but I can never fully remember –what is that fully?

Tim:
[Chuckles] I do. I teach, um, in the undergraduate it’s, uh, “peacebuilding and development.” And in that program, we have, uh, majors that give students the opportunity to focus either specifically on peacebuilding or, uh, specifically on global development. Uh, and then we have a major that combines the two, for students to get an introduction and experience with peacebuilding and development. And so I teach in those programs and more recently also a newer program here at 91����Ƶ is a “global studies” program that I was part of the team to, um, to develop that…so also teach in that program as well.

patience:
In addition to that, you also teach at The Center for Justice and Peacebuilding, which is a graduate program; tell us about that…

Tim:
Yeah, so I teach courses at CJP. Um, most of my teaching actually is undergraduate. Uh, so teaching classes like, you know, “social and political economy” or, uh, “globalization and justice,” and then at CJP the graduate program, my, I teach a global development seminar that includes both graduate and undergraduate, and I teach, I’m one of…I am part of the instructional team for one of “Foundations” seminars.

So for our master’s programs at CJP, in particular, the Conflict Transformation and Restorative Justice programs, uh, students take this yearlong “Foundations” seminar, six credit hours, fall, and six credit hours in the spring. And so I have the great privilege of co-teaching the second, the “Foundations II” seminar with Dr. Johonna Turner, and I’ve been doing that for a few years now as well.

patience:
I think when I was going through the program, Foundations II was probably my favorite experience throughout the whole…, um, it had different instructors at the time, but still it was, it was, uh, it was very tough, it was a lot of work, but it was also very, um, informative in so many ways.

Tim:
What was it, patience, what was one of the big things you remember about that class?
I’m sorry… [laughs].

patience:
[Laughing] Um, let’s see. Um, Catherine Barnes was teaching the class at the time and, uh, what I recall was…were our conversations in, now, I’m not going to remember the terms very clearly, but the concepts were, how do systems develop and the complexity within them and how, um, what complexity is necessary…what’s not, and at what point does…do things get too complex that they become so brittle that the system can’t take it anymore, that it just then breaks, uh, versus actually having systems that can bend with the changes and accommodate.

Um, and that’s just a very, very simple explanation of it, but we went into great discussions of just how systems are formed, which of course includes governments and how those evolve that some…one thing is created and another then forms that then is dependent on that. And how those just keep adding on top of one another, you know, for example, the formation of Nation States that then created the need for boundaries and borders, um, which then created the formation of passports and then departments that have to then run those passports and all that…anyway, all that sort of stuff and how it all just interrelates; which interestingly touches a bit on what we’re going to be talking about today.

Tim:
All right…

patience:
Um, but anyway, um, the piece of paper that I was reading that of the topics that we were preparing about what to talk about today, um, you listed four areas in which are conversations you’re currently engaging. So I’m just going to list them and hopefully we can go through them together. Does that sound okay?

Tim:
Sure, thank you.

patience:
All right. So the first one, um, is Transnational and anticolonial connectivity and the politics of solidarity; uh, Critical political economy; Violence, nonviolence, and resistance, and fourth, um, Religion, interfaith, and the postsecular in politics, peacebuilding and development. So let’s go through that and tell us about them. So, what’s “Transnational and anticolonial connectivity and the politics of solidarity”?

Tim:
For that area…so those are four…when I think about where my interests kind of are, are gathered and collecting these days, um, and the conversations with my colleagues and partners I have in those conversations. So for this one, with Transnational, anticolonial connectivities in particular, there’s a project I’m working on that looks at how one, you know, we pay attention to the world that we live in today, and it’s sort of it’s the colonial constitution of the world, right? How the, how the, the colonial legacies, you know, if we pay attention to history, um, we observe how those colonial legacies persist into the, into the present, right? That, that the past isn’t so past.

And so with this conversation, looking at how then folks inhabit that world in ways, um, that, that struggle against and resist the barr…so you mentioned some of those barriers and boundaries, right? That really stood out to you when you took Foundations II, right? So how, how do those barriers and boundaries prevent people from being with each other, from collaborating, from, uh, living?

Um, and so in this conversation, we’re trying to figure out how folks do that, how they connect, how they, uh, how they find, um, patterns and avenues of solidarity to struggle against in their particular places or in their particular –cause all struggle is local, all struggle, as you know, is local. And the things that, that are struggled against are global in their remits, right? The systems in those structures, right. Those trends and forces. And so how then do folks not only struggle in their places, right, but also then connect with others, as others struggle in their places in ways that create a global or transnational and anti-colonial impact or expression. Yeah, does that make sense?

patience:
Yes, it does, it does! And what it brings to mind, interestingly, as you were saying that is, I think the connection, obviously from afar between, um, the, Islamic Civil Rights movement in the United States that was connecting with, uh, like Palestine and vice-versa like…getting energy, look at the, what this movement is doing here…could we actually be doing that here, you know, in this other place and vice-versa. And I mean, that’s obviously increasing more and more as we are more connected or the, the world shrinks virtually, uh, yeah. That’s what comes to mind when, when you say something like that…does that make sense to you?

Tim:
Yeah. And I think that example highlights how those connections and those solidarities emerge and take shape without the permission of the, we’ll say the Metropole or the, sort of the imperial or colonial centers of power in the world today, right? So, oftentimes this idea of permission or this idea of visibility or audibility, right, “if I can’t see it, it’s not happening.” “If I can’t hear it, it’s not, it’s not happening.” And to say, well, let’s, let’s, let’s think about that.

And of course that’s relevant for our justice and peacebuilding too, you know, wherever we are, where we think, “oh, I don’t see this happening or this isn’t happening according to the categories or the language that I understand,” that means that it’s not happening. And to really, really interrogate that, to really question that which, you know, involves some significant humility too, uh, on the parts of both, uh, academics and practitioners..

patience:
Yeah, what’s, what’s the role of civil society in making that thrive?

Tim:
Yeah. If, and if civil society is a space is a social political, economic space that is not bound to the state, for example, um, or even the market, um, if we can say that, then we could say that, you know, civil society is an important space where those connections and those solidarities, you know, might emerge. And as we observe that, and as we conclude that we’re also mindful of, you know, what does it mean to claim that one is outside of the bounds of, of the political and economic domination of the market or the state, right? And so then, you know, how we understand the complexity of that, even as we struggle, even as we acknowledge the struggle of others, too.

patience:
Yeah. What comes up with that in your classes or even in your research?

Tim:
Oh, well, so I was part of a wonderful, uh, participated, I viewed a wonderful symposium –actually it was yesterday– some, some colleagues and friends down at Virginia Tech had this, really great symposium, looking at some of these questions of colonial legacies and decolonial possibilities or the possibilities of decolonization and a phrase that really stood out to me from, um, a gentleman who, um, a native American or First Nations, uh, scholar, in Canada, who talked about, how…ask the question, how do we de-center the state in our political imaginations?

And he had this phrase that really stood out to me; he says, you know, our work as, as indigenous folks is to make the state redundant. And so I think that, that really captures an important sensibility for me in my classes too, and my own, you know, as I’ve found a home in the Anabaptist/Mennonite tradition, I think that really resonates there too, where we think about identity and community in ways that makes the state redundant, uh, or de-centers the state. And so that’s, that’s an important thing that I try to bring into my classes, you know, to help us imagine other forms and even other orders, other political economic orders that might not take something like the nation state as a point of departure, or even as a frame of reference.

patience:
Ooh, wow! To make the state redundant? The state might rebel against that quite a bit, and it probably does [both laugh] in its own ways. Uh, it wants to be very, very relevant. Um, you’ve mentioned a couple of times the legacies of colonialism, and you also mentioned that you lived in the Middle East, Palestine. Um, what do you think the…can you talk a little bit about the effects of –what was it, the Sykes-Picot agreement and uh…

Tim:
Oh my…

patience:
[Both chuckle] Yeah, how has that affected life today? Because I think that continues to unfold.

Tim:
Yeah…

patience:
…and when was that — the late 19th, early 20th, 19th century? When was like Sykes-Picot signed?

Tim:
It was 19…yeah, early 20th century. Yes, Sykes-PicotSites, patience, you’re bringing us back to the post World War one era in the region, yeah. So I, in every once in a while, every other year, I also have the privilege of teaching a “History of the Middle East” class, which is, I enjoy so much because that era did shape a lot of not only that region, but the world. I mean, um following the 1918 –the end of the world war one– um, in that region, you had a lot of interests…there still are [chuckles] a lot of interests in the Middle East and in North Africa, and so Sykes-Picot was this interesting, uh, problematic, arrangement between the British and the French to create new maps. Um, and maps are so powerful, aren’t they? Um, they’re so powerful.

Let’s go back to your comments on borders and boundaries –it’s so powerful because they’ve visibilize, completely fictitious imaginary lines in the sand, right, they’re not real [patience laughs], and yet they determine, and yet they determine who can go, who can stay here and who can’t stay here…

patience:
…and in a lot of ways, that means they determine who can live and who can die; who can actually thrive and who cannot…

Tim:
Exactly, exactly. It speaks to how, while for some of us, you know, this globalizing order feels like things are just coming closer together for us around the world, you know, economically or culturally, right. But for others of us, this globalizing order has stretched us even further. Um, Homi Bhabha once said that the greatest distance for the displaced person, uh, the greatest distance for refugee is, is the step across a border. So here are these, here are these borders in a place called the Middle East, which, where did that name come from?

But anyway, here’s the, here’s this, here are these borders in the Middle East, um, that are shaped, continue to be reshaped and reproduced, and we can go back to, yeah, Sykes-Picot, this British-French “behind closed doors” agreement to, to carve up the remnants of the Ottoman empire.

And so we have, yeah, if you know, the story, patience that with the French, you know, was, was sort of granted the mandate over what is today, Syria, and what is today Lebanon and the British were granted the mandate of what is today, Iraq and Jordan and Palestine; which Palestine is the only one of those mandates that actually never became a state. Um, but that those borders and the idea itself of the state, came from a place. Um, it’s not a natural normal…right? This is part of what I also try to do is, is to de-naturalize these ideas for my students, is this, what did this idea come from? Where did this map come from? And so Sykes-Picot is just one of those parts of the story that produced what we have today, when we look at a map of the world.

patience:
Yeah. Where did the idea of a state come from?

Tim:
Where did the idea? [laughs].

patience:
Yeah, like how did that develop…if we can do that in…

Tim:
…[both laugh] do you remember, do you remember this in Foundations II?

patience:
[Laughs] I do not, I do not, please remind me…

Tim:
Yeah, well, I mean, we, I mean, one of the things that I, I often talk about with my students is how the idea of the state and then the system itself, um, we can trace back to at least the 17th century with the Peace of Westphalia, following all those Wars in Europe, that, you know, this kind of, these concepts of sovereignty, right? These concepts of borders and of citizenship and of rights and all those things that we can trace back to some of those periods of time in Europe; it came from Europe. And then how did it get from Europe to other parts of the world? How did that happen?

patience:
Colonialism!

Tim:
Well, there you go, right. You have a system, an idea, and then a system that’s spread through these imperial and colonial projects.

patience:
Mm-hm, how does democracy fit in there? Is it a colonial project or is it not…what’s? What are your thoughts on that?

Tim:
[Laughs] Democracy from whom, right?

patience:
[Laughing] Right!
[Sarcastically] The details, Tim, why are you bothered about the details?

Tim:
Yeah! Well, I think, you know, as we think about these concepts and systems, um, and we recognize that they have a history, right? And that they have particular…anything that has a history, there’s, there’s an interest, right, to that system, to that concept that benefits some folks and might not benefit, might not be benefiting other folks. And so again, asking those sorts of question of who benefits from this idea of democracy, who’s benefiting from this, from this border line, from this checkpoint, right, from this wall, who’s benefiting from the…this is a real important question that we can ask in all of my classes.

patience:
Yeah, and how does uh, critical political economy factor into all of this? What is it, what is critical political economy anyway? How would you define it?

Tim:
Yeah, so that –if political economy is trying to understand the relationship between politics and economics and the way that power is manifest together, right? You know, and that, that the market and the state aren’t just two discrete, separate realms of activity. Um, the critical piece is the part that asks that, “who benefits” question again, um, by paying particular attention to the history and development of capitalism and the ongoing legacy of, of colonialism, um, in particular, in both areas of particular, um, how it’s racialized and gendered, which, which also then speaks to the “who benefits” question, because both the, both of those pieces, you know, the history of capital and the history of empire…

patience:
…go hand-in-hand…

Tim:
…they go hand-in-hand, yeah.

Transition music:
[Transition music plays].

patience:
So you’re writing a paper on the Palestine-Mexico border. Can you talk about that and how political economy factors into that? [Tim laughs] And why the Palestine-Mexico border?

Tim:
Uhm, and why the why the Palestine-Mexico border. So that was a term that was coined by a journalist Jimmy Johnson several years ago. And what it is meant to do is to show how the border regime on the US-Mexico border and the border regime in Palestine, that Israel has built a wall with checkpoints and the system of closures; how those two regimes aren’t accidental to each other. And so the political, the political economic, you know, sort of analytical piece to that is to say, yeah, who benefits from those regimes, the checkpoints, the walls, the towers, the border patrols, the drones, right? And where do they come from? And we find that there are significant global business connections, even, um, between those two discrete places, right? They are different places, but remember that struggle is always place-based –in a place–

patience:
…it’s local…

Tim:
It’s local. And, if I see that drone flying overhead, is the same…made from the same company of a drone that’s flying overhead or somewhere, halfway around the world, then I should pay attention to that. Why is that? How does that happen? Um, and so my, my inquiry into the Palestine-Mexico border is both had an inquiry into how do these regimes, how are they constructed and how are they resisted? How are they struggled against, because both of those regimes, we can identify –again in this history of capital and history of empire– where there are, there are always, always struggle, always struggle, but again, I might not see it, I might not hear it, but that doesn’t mean it’s not happening. There’s always struggle.

And in this particular case, it’s specific local place-based struggles that have actually linked up and connected, right, with that anticolonial, transnational, um, sensibility or even goal, uh, that, that drives that, that connectivity.

patience:
It’s interesting that you gave that example, you know, of a drone that’s flying over one border in North America and another in the Middle East –yeah, why is it called the Middle East? The middle of what east? [Both laugh], That’s an interesting question for another time; but that’s interesting because it, it reminds me of former president late Dwight Eisenhower –what was it, what was that phrase that he used about militarism?

Tim:
Oh, the military industrial complex.

patience:
Yes! And it’s, it’s just become global obviously, given that, what do you think about that?

Tim:
The military industrial complex?

patience:
Yes, and its relation to the Palest…you know, political economy.

Tim:
Yeah. Well, and I would, I would also add uh, another descriptor that relates to this, that Angela Davis talks about with the prison industrial complex too. Because when we start talking about walls and border regimes and regimes meant to enclose people, detain people, we start talking about here in the US these histories of incarceration as well, that are not unrelated to these borders, um, that we observed at the US-Mexico border or, or the wall in Palestine.

And so, um, I think the, the industrial piece that we can find in a number of these descriptors, I think yeah, it speaks again to the history of capital and how, um, or as, um, Cedric Robinson called it Racial Capitalism, right? “Racial Capital” to talk about how those histories, how the history of capital has always been wrapped up in histories of historically, right, racialized plunder, racialized theft, racialized enslavement, and then today racialized incarceration too.

patience:
Histories of exploitation, basically.

Tim:
Yeah, right.

patience:
Yeah, let’s move on to the third one, Violence, non-violence and resistance. Um, so how do you think about that?

Tim:
Yeah. This, this one also, really, yeah…so when you, when you asked the question earlier, patience about my own story, how did I get here? I think of…when I think of my work and my teaching and my writing, um, it’s, it’s so it’s so autobiographical too, isn’t it? It’s, you know, we trace these genealogies of why, why am I interested in these things? Or why are we interested in these things? So this is something that, again, I trace back to my experience in Palestine and living in Palestine and thinking about how –and my commitments to non-violence too– um, from a, from a, both an ethical and a theological perspective.

But with this, this conversation, um, I’m interested in thinking about those dominant categories again, right? Violence, non-violence, or…again, those aren’t natural categories. Somebody decides –not only decides what is, or isn’t violence– they prescribe it and say, you are, or you are not violent or nonviolent, right? And so, um, and so, yeah, when I, when I think about my work in Palestine, how do those, how do those categories mapped onto a place like Palestine, right, from sort of the external observers or, you know, the, uh, what we might call the, the imperial or the colonial, or the “white gaze” upon a place like Palestine. We, we, we map those categories –again, maps are so powerful– onto a place like Palestine, but then represents people in a particular way.

patience:
Yeah. Especially when you’re saying, um, how we categorize violence or non-violence, that’s interesting to me, because –especially since post 9-11, um, the use of terrorists has really, I mean, I mean, it always was, but it feels to me like it proliferated quite a bit, um, at that time…and it’s all very subjective. Who decides who’s the terrorist, I’m sure the terrorist doesn’t think that they’re a terrorist, they are fighting for what they believe is, you know, and especially if that then collides with a concept that you talked about earlier of trying to make the state, uh, what was it? Uh, irrele…redundant?

Tim:
Redundant, yeah.

patience:
Yes. Yes. Uh, and that’s interesting to me how those two would collide and then who’s labeled as an undesirable by the system and how those decisions are made.

Tim:
That’s a, I think that’s a really important observation and asking that question of, you know, whose violence or whose nonviolence, whose terrorism, or who is, you know, you know, the classic, terrorist or freedom fighter kind of categorization. Um, and again, going back to that critical piece, somebody benefits from that categorization. This isn’t an attempt to relativize, or sort of like this abstract kind of academic exercise about categories, but this is, this is a very, these are clear manifestations of power, right? The power to name, the power to map the power to include or exclude.

And so in justice and peacebuilding work, it’s for me, it’s, it’s a, it’s a reminder to think really seriously about not only those categories, but whose categories are we using as we do our conflict analysis, for example, or as we do our policy advocacy, or as we do our community organizing, um, which is to say, who’s, who’s part of that who gets to determine, who gets to play a role in determining those categories because of their lived experiences, and so I think the terrorism or the terrorist example is a great one because yeah, some of the stuff I write about, I think that binary the violence/non-violence binary, cause it’s, it’s…that’s where I’m interested in it and how it’s, it’s either an it’s an either, or I think it’s actual function sometimes as a binary as an either, or is not to, is not to observe violence and nonviolence, it’s to authorize some people’s activities and de-authorize other people’s activities; peoples who are not incidentally, racialized and gendered in particular ways in those discourses, right?

So when I, when I say that’s violence I’m de-authorizing, um, yeah, or when I say that’s nonviolence, I’m saying that’s okay. And so I’m trying to look below that to say, how is that at work, when we do our, our justice and peacebuilding? And there’s histories to it too, because in a place like palace and the history is, uh, violence and there’s for, for, for, again, with those, those particular, the racialization and gendering of particular bodies in particular places, um, as a white guy, I don’t have to defend my actions as non-violent all the time, right, but I…who, for whom do we observe having to make the case that they’re not violent, make the case and people’s imaginations, and in people’s politics and, and people’s sort of, uh, economics that they’re not violent that they are, you know…so I think that’s that authorization/de-authorization piece, that when we viewed the histories, there are, there are trends that we can observe. In this country, how some folks, some communities in particular, uh, communities of color are, or poor, poor communities, disadvantaged communities are talked about in ways where that, that, you know, that defensive posture is the starting point. Does that make sense?

patience:
Yeah. I mean, it does, it completely makes sense and where it takes me –two areas! Um, and we, we don’t have to look too far past, you know, our history, just this past summer, the response of the state to the Black Lives Matter protests versus the response, or lack thereof, um, on January 6th. Right there was, was very visible difference.

Tim:
Yeah, and we can use the language of violence, we can also use language of “threat” as well..for whom are racialized, as threats in our communities. Which again, we have to go back to the whole prison industrial complex again, and how those institutions have a history that emerged out of, you know, the sense of necessity because of those “threats.” But if, but if we examine those –threats for whom, where do those “threats” come from, right?

When, when a group of white folks, you know, March on the Capitol versus, uh, or here’s another example, I don’t know if you remember, um, I haven’t written about this, but I’ve thought about –it was a few years back, some folks out in the Midwest or out in the Northwest, in the U.S. decided they were just going to take over some public land?

patience:
Oh yeah, that’s right, Oregon. Yeah. It was in Oregon or Washington, somewhere over there…

Tim:
…something like that. I’m forgetting, I’m forgetting the name. There was a family, there was like a couple, a couple of guys, a couple of white guys.

patience:
I know exactly who you mean!

Tim:
You know what I’m talking about? And when that was going on…and it was just like, “ahhh, you know,” and the government, the state was like, “ahhh, you know,” [patience laughs] but then I thought, you know, in 1973, ’73 or ’74, when Native American/Indigenous folks went to Wounded Knee, the American Indian Movement went to Wounded Knee, it was, I think one of the first times in American history, the United States Army, not the National Guard, the United States Army was deployed on American soil.

patience:
Oh God!

Tim:
And so I thought about that, I’m like, “huh, so here we are, and these, these white fellows can just take over this land and the state just sort of throws its hands up”…

patience:
…shows an incredible amount of patience with them…

Tim:
…and a very different understanding of “who belongs: and “who doesn’t belong,” right?

patience:
Of course, yeah!

Tim:
Right, with Native American/Indigenous folks who, you know, any sort of –this is part of the colonial legacy, the settler colonial legacy in particular– any, any claim to land, right, that is outside of the State is seen as, uh, as violence.

patience:
Yeah. Um, I’m also curious about this, um, “authorization” of, you know, or “de-authorization” of, of violence and nonviolence when it comes to…let’s go back to the 1960s and the Civil Rights Movement here, and the fallacious dichotomy between Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X. Um, what are your thoughts on that? [both laugh] Clearly one was categorized as being nonviolent and the other one was, um, being framed in a very different light.

Tim:
So my first response is everybody’s should read James Cone’s book on this very issue [laughs], James Cone the late, uh, Black theologian from Union who passed away just a couple of years ago. Um, he wrote, you know, cause that, that, that binary that you just named is, uh, you know, why does that continue to show up in our public discourse? Because it’s not true…

patience:
…it’s not true.

Tim:
Right, it’s not true, but why does, why does it persist? And so it persists because it performs a particular function. Like it’s doing some work in our heads and in our policies.

patience:
What is that function?

Tim:
Well, there you go, what is that work? I don’t know. I mean, what, what comes to mind? What, what difference, why does that distinction? Why is that distinction helpful? Why, why and narrated that way, what do you think patience?

patience:
I don’t know. Um, I mean the most obvious –and I don’t even know whether this is accurate or not, I’d be curious what other people think– is the religious difference.

Tim:
Yeah.

patience:
One was Muslim and the other was Christian. Uh, the nation…is sorry, the United States, when I say “the nation,” I realize it could mean “The Nation of Islam,” [both laugh] um, the United States sees itself as founded on Christianity, um, and all that. And the legacies that, that brings…the familiarity with the fact that Martin Luther King Jr. was a Christian felt more acceptable, maybe? Um, and thus could be, looked at through a lens that was probably more palatable to, I don’t know [chuckles]…the colonial powers within the United States. Um, and, and that was probably not the same with Malcolm X. So I don’t know, what do you think, do you, do you think I’m way off base here?

Tim:
I think that’s an important point. I think thinking about faith is really important on that front, because I think that faith is always, is also racialized and gendered in particular ways, too, right? Um, this is where I am really, really excited in a couple of weeks. We’re going to have a guest, our March colloquium speaker here at 91����Ƶ is Dr. Saher Selod from Simmons up in Boston, and she’s written about the racialization of Muslims post 9/11 as well in America. So I think that, I think you have something there in terms of faith.

Um, I think, I think it’s, yeah, there’s a lot going on with that, um, in terms of which King are we remembering as we cast that King against the Malcolm X that we’re remembering, right? Cause there, historically we can look back and there are, you know, Dr. “Kings” that folks didn’t look at as favorably, um, as they might today, and so there’s a, there’s this remembrance piece too, right? When Dr. King is, is, is condemning the Vietnam war, for example, you know, compared to the Dr. King, you know, delivering the, “I have a dream” speech. Um, so I think, I think there’s that too, where we select the “Kings” and we select the, the, the Malcolm “Xs,” um, in order to, in order to construct this binary that you just named.

patience:
I mean [chuckles], the United States did not like –at least the government– at the very least, maybe more specifically, the FBI was not a fan of Martin Luther King. Um, at least…there’re narratives out there that, uh, the FBI director at the time, Hoover, was so concerned about a Black Messiah rising that he just placed so much, so many resources to destroy Dr. King’s reputation at the very least.

Tim:
Yeah. By the way, have you seen that movie?

patience:
Yes. Yeah-yeah-yeah, the recent one! Yes, yes, yes. Um, what, what is it? 
What’s uh…, “Judas and the Black Messiah.”

Tim:
Right, about Fred Hampton.

patience:
That’s right, exactly. Yup. He was so young. My goodness.

Tim:
He was so young!

patience:
He died…he was assassinated at what, 22?

Tim:
21.

patience:
21, yeah.

Tim:
And you know, so this is great. So Fred Hampton for, for folks who don’t know, Fred Hampton was, uh, the leader of the Black Panther Party in Chicago and, you know, something that we actually do that Johonna and I have done in our class in Foundations II, is when we start asking these sorts of questions, right, we start kind of de-naturalizing a little bit about, “well, of course this is what a peacebuilder looks like,” or “this is what a social justice activist looks like.”

We start dialing…sort of peeling that off a little bit, and we’ve actually lifted up Fred Hampton. “Fred Hampton, was he a peacebuilder?” Right? He brought the, he created this incredible –at 21, this coalition that was unprecedented, I think, and so, you know, when we ask these sorts of questions, it starts to, it allows us to see and to hear, in different ways, and to imagine in different ways.

patience:
Yeah, I mean, it just, if he had…if he was able to accomplish that by the time he was 21, can you just imagine what could have been?I mean, these are the thoughts…where I think about when I try to imagine if, if these, these, uh, acts of progress had not been disrupted with such violence, you know, and I, you know, I think of him obviously of Martin Luther King, I think of Malcolm X, I think of, uh, the reversing of reconstruction after the civil war. Uh, I mean, all these things that are violently crushed and just brought to a complete end. Anyway, it just, uh, I mourn when I think about the possibilities and where this country, where this world would be, if those had succeeded.

Tim:
And the other side of that too, is, is how we acknowledge the incredible things that have been going…continue, like the continuities and in particularly, so we’ve been talking primarily about men in these stories too, so, you know, some of the, some of the, the women in those movements who kept things going and continue to do that too. It’s just, there’s, just to acknowledge that, just to sort of name that too, as we, as we think about what could have been, yeah.

patience:
Thank you, right, thank you for doing that.

Transition music:
[Transition music plays]

patience:
Let’s talk about the fourth one, which is “Religion, interfaith and the postsecular in politics, peacebuilding and development.” I’m particularly interested in the, in the portion about how knowledge or expertise is located; let’s talk about that because obviously some cultures, some communities, you know, for example, pass their knowledge and their wisdom and expertise through oral histories, instead of writing them down versus other cultures, obviously Western culture, which has mostly been about writing…and then over time, it’s been assumed that [chuckles] that’s where all the knowledge lies. Anyway, I’m curious to hear about your thoughts there.

Tim:
Mm-hm, well, that’s a great point, a great reminder about narrative and knowledge and where that’s held and where and where those archives are, right. Where those archives are that we can go to, that we need to build or contribute to. I think for this, so, you know, and this relates to some of my thinking about, and some of the ways that we talk about interfaith engagement at The Center for Interfaith Engagements, um, is how, how faith and spirituality, how, how that can open up in particular in a world, in the U.S. or in other, other parts of the world, where are…the prevailing political and social and economic systems have been? What one might call –uh, defined through through secular terms, which again, we’re thinking about binaries again, um, the secular religious binary and how that in a place like the U.S. or in other places like in Europe, for example, the language of secular authorizes in the language of faith or religiosity, maybe not de-authorizes, but says “you haven’t caught up yet,” right? [Both laugh]

Which is part of that colonial legacy, right. Dipesh Chakrabarty, who is, uh, a South Asian scholar, uh, writes about how, you know, a particular understanding of history where some folks, right, history is just like a, it’s like a train it’s like, and we’re all on, we’re all on the track, um, we’re just at different stages, right. Um, and for some folks, they they’re farther along, they are farther back on the track because of their excessive religiosity. And of course in that theory of history, the train is just going to Europe [chuckles] –that’s where everything’s heading, um, that’s that Eurocentrism [laughs]. But when I think about this and, and the post secular, or the way to think outside of…think beyond kind of that secular, you know, state centric, frame of reference is to imagine a more interruptive, you know, uh, uh, perspective of, of history and, and society that again, reminds me to pay attention to what’s going on. Um,…

patience:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Tim, um, how does this connect with your spiritual health? How does this feed your spirit, this area of work and exploration and research?

Tim:
So, I think one of the ways is it moves me to live an integrated life, um, you know, with some of these categories and some of these distinctions and some of these either/ors, the implication is that we, we disintegrate ourselves, don’t we, right? “I’m going to put this part of myself over here,” “I’m going to put this part of myself over here.” Um, and, and we might not ever bring all of our self together. And so, you know, when, when we’re talking through talking through these four pieces, um, they reflect different aspects –like, like I said earlier of my own journey of my own, my own story, even. So in that regard, it’s a spirituality that looks to live in an integrated way.

And, and one of the ways that happens too, for me, by paying attention to relationships and pain…cause isn’t it, isn’t it the case that sometimes where we are most whole, when we can be our most, whole selves with somebody or with some place or with some time? So, I mean, and it goes back to my understanding of knowledge and responsibility and teaching and scholarship and all that stuff too. But, um, thinking about all of those relations and all of those relationships, as well as, as pieces that are part of me that are integrated into who I am. And, um, it’s a struggle to figure out how to bring that to everything I do, right. How to, you know, we say sometimes how to show up in those whole and healthy ways. And I don’t always do it…I don’t it’s a struggle sometimes…

patience:
Any, any example come to mind where you felt so aligned, um, where you fully showed up? And yeah, where that alignment happened for you, that you’re able to share with us?

Tim:
Hmm. It’s a couple stories that come to mind; both in the classroom [laughs]. Um, I mean, one example that comes to mind is I was teaching a class like a few years ago now, peacebuilding, undergraduate peacebuilding class, and we were talking about theories of structural violence, right. And as a class, you know, myself, my students kind of just really wrestling with despair, right. Wrestling with that discouragement of these, these systems of domination and oppression that are baked into the structure, right. It’s not a, it’s not a technical fix. It’s baked into the structure.

And so I had a student just asked me, well then how do you, what do you do? How are you responding? How are you feeling? I mean, what, what do you do with this? And in the face of this? And I found myself in that moment, two things came to mind –one was I heard Marx [laughs] Marx who, you know, Karl Marx who talked about never, never shying away from a ruthless criticism of everything that is.

And telling my students, I, I felt like I could do that, I could kind of stay with that because I don’t approach those structures –and I don’t approach history even as a progressive series of events, right. That somehow today we’re better off than we were a thousand years ago, or that linear, progressive perspective issue…I don’t, I don’t take that on because…which is to say as, as a, as a person who’s Christian, identifies as Christian in my faith, I can say that some sort of resolution –not complete– happened 2000 years ago with the life death and resurrection of Jesus. And that, that has implications for how I respond without, without despair in a contemporary…taking up Marx’s call, the critique because of that faith that I try to integrate into my teaching and living and et cetera.

patience:
How does, how does that manifest for you on a day-to-day basis?

Tim:
Oh, there’s so many tensions, aren’t there? So many tensions and my relationships help me find a way through those tensions, wonderful conversations at home with my wife, Chris and my kids, my children [laughs], uh, help me with that. But yeah, there’s, it’s, there’s tension. There’s so much tension there.

patience:
What do you mean by “tension”?

Tim:
Well, the, the, the, the, you know, feeling pulled and feeling, you know, really feeling the, the incompleteness of it all, or at least I, I hope I feel that way, cause it is incomplete, I mean, whenever when everyone gets the sense of, “Oh, this is it, we’re complete.” “We can end this conver…patience, we can end the conversation, we’re good –podcasts, the Peacebuilder podcast is over,” [both laughing]…

patience:
…we’ve figured it all out…

Tim:
…”we’ve figured it out!” Then we are in, that’s an indicator that something is wrong, so…

patience:
…you welcome the tension.

Tim:
Yeah, right, right.

patience:
And the ability to hold that, you attribute to your faith, to navigate that at least?

Tim:
Mm-hm, yeah, the particularity of my story, right, of my day-to-day, um, is something I’m responsible for, and it’s, it’s not the whole story…

patience:
…it’s ongoing…

Tim:
It’s ongoing.

patience:
All right. So we are almost here toward the end. So I have two questions for you. Is there anything that we haven’t covered yet that you would like to talk about and two, what book have you recently read that you would like to share with our listeners…that you’re like, everybody should read this book or even a movie?

Tim:
Oh man!

patience:
Anything, yeah. What would you, so those two things…

Tim:
No other questions are coming to mind. I think we’ve had a wonderful conversation. I’m sure there’s lots of questions about CJP we could also ask, but…

patience:
…[chuckles] we’ll leave those for another season.

Tim:
So one of the books I’ve really enjoyed recently, um, this was my holiday, uh, treat myself reading break, was a book, um, a recent book by Eddie Glaude Jr. called “Begin Again: James Baldwin’s America, and It’s Urgent Lessons for Our Own,” and I was able to read this in conversation with, with a really good friend too. And this is a great book, um, really good stuff. Um, Eddie Glaude Jr. teaches at Princeton, right?

Um, and I…Baldwin is somebody James Baldwin, uh African-American uh, essayist, playwright, um, an activist, uh, was really, really formative for me, both spiritually and intellectually and this recent book, uh, by Glaude, um, that’s, it’s sort of autobiographical, uh, for Glaude and, uh, really just provided some wonderful insights into Baldwin’s, own tumultuous journey and how he made it through –as a way of reading the current moment that we’re in, in the United States of America.

patience:
One more question comes to mind. You said that Baldwin was very formative to you in what ways can you tell me one or two?

Tim:
Yeah. Um, I was…Dr. Josiah Young is a theology professor at Wesley Theological Seminary, and he introduced me to, to Baldwin in a class, um, at seminary where we dug into the question of love, “what is love?” And “what does it mean to love each other?” And Baldwin’s writing on love I think for me that, that’s where the, that has been terribly formative and thinking about love in ways that’s challenging and invitational at the same time. Um, have you, have you been able to get into Baldwin at all patience?

patience:
No. No, no. Not as much as I would like…on my to-do list!

Tim:
Yeah. He doesn’t hold back in speaking the truth about the United States of America, but in a way where there’s this vision of love…for me, I, there’re few places and voices, um, I’ve encountered it that way.

patience:
All right, I have nothing more, Tim. So thank you so very much for taking the time to do this.

Tim:
Thank you patience.

patience:
It’s been fun!

Tim:
Well, same here. Very, very much appreciate it. 
Thank you.

patience:
All right, bye-bye.

Tim:
All right, bye bye.

patience:
Earlier in the episode, Tim referenced a phrase about “making the state redundant.” He would like to note that he heard it in a talk by Dr. Jeff Corntassel from the Cherokee Nation who is Associate Professor in the Indigenous Studies Department at the University of Victoria.

~

Dr. Seidel is is co-editor of the book Palestine and Rule of Power: Local Dissent vs. International Governance. He has a new edited book coming out later this spring titled Political Economy of Palestine: Critical, Interdisciplinary, and Decolonial Perspectives (co-edited with Alaa Tartir and Tariq Dana). He is also working with his colleague Alina Sajed co-editing a special issue for the journal Postcolonial Studies titled “Anticolonial Connectivity and the Politics of Solidarity: Between Home and the World.

Outro music:
[Outro music begins and fades into background]

patience:
All the music you hear on this podcast has been composed by the one and only, , our audio mixing engineer extraordinary, is . And, I am the podcast executive producer, audio recording engineer, editor and host patience kamau. As you are able, please remember to subscribe, rate and review this podcast so that other peacebuilders may find it. We’ll be back with a new episode in two weeks. Thanks so much for listening and join us again, next time.

Outro music:
[Outro music fades back into foreground and plays till end]

In this episode, Dr. Catherine Barnes talks about designing and facilitating deliberative dialogue processes, as well as current events including the military coup in Myanmar.

Dr. Barnes has worked for conflict transformation and social change for more than 30 years in many countries. She has worked with civil society, activists, diplomats and politicians, and armed groups to build their capacities for preventing violence and using conflict as an opportunity for addressing the systems giving rise to oppression and grievance.

The conversation begins with a deep dive into deliberative dialogue: what it is, when it’s useful, and what it has the power to do for a community struggling with conflict.

“The dialogue is very much about setting the conversation in this connection point – at a human level – between those who are involved and the perspectives that they have to bring. So that particularly if there’s been tension, conflict, or even indeed oppression, that you have this humanization of relationships,” Barnes explains. 

One of the early experiences that led Barnes towards this field of work was growing up in the Quaker Universalist tradition, in which congregants gather in silence “and seek the light of God moving within,” she said. They “have … this understanding that often in those spaces, there may be someone who feels moved to share something.”

Barnes went on to earn her doctorate in conflict analysis and resolution from George Mason University alongside Jayne Docherty, Barry Hart, and Lisa Schirch. She’s done conflict transformation work all over the world – including training deliberative dialogue process designers and facilitators in Myanmar. 

91����Ƶ the current violence in the country, Barnes said she feels “so heartbroken. I feel scared, scared for people who I have come to know and respect and, indeed, to love … I think it really does reveal in many ways how the zero sum nature of a power paradigm based on unilateral control and coercion is so hard to shift.”

“Are there resilience tools that you think are within the community that might help carry them through this?” Kamau asks.

“I always, always have hope,” Barnes replied. “I often will say that it’s actually, it’s within movements that you almost need these skills even more to try to think about, ‘how do we generate something that will be different in nature, different in kind than the old system that had been oppressive?'”

Guest(s)

Dr. Catherine Barnes

Dr. Catherine Barnes has worked for conflict transformation and social change for more than thirty years in many countries. She has worked with civil society activists, diplomats and politicians, and armed groups to build their capacities for preventing violence and using conflict as an opportunity for addressing the systems giving rise to oppression and grievance.

Catherine is increasingly focused on designing whole-of-system deliberative dialogue processes aimed at systemic transformation and in training other practitioners in these methods. She has facilitated processes in locations ranging from the UN General Assembly Hall to village gathering places. She is now an affiliate faculty member of the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding here at 91����Ƶ and a freelance practitioner and researcher.��

Dr. Barnes lives in Staunton Virginia with her husband and son, with whom she loves to garden, to cook and to retreat into the wilds.

Transcript

Catherine:
How are people coming together? How were they convened? How do their voices first come into the room? How do they start to engage? What are the communication agreements? Perhaps, the guiding principles that are used to help generate that conversation. What are the experiential exercises that are put into place that may enable certain concepts or ways of conversing come into the place? In many, many, many different ways that you could do this, but having that intentionality about it and having a sense –from a theories of practice– “if we do this, then this is more likely to happen,” are those, what I would think of as the design principles, underpinning dialogue deliberation and decision-making.

Theme music:
[Theme music begins and fades into back ground]

patience:
Hi, everyone, happy Wednesday to you!
Welcome back to peacebuilder, a conflict transformation podcast by The Center for Justice and Peacebuilding.
Our guest this fine episode is:

Catherine:
Catherine Barnes, affiliate faculty with The Center for Justice and Peacebuilding.

patience:
Dr. Catherine Barnes has worked for conflict transformation and social change for more than thirty years in many countries. She has worked with civil society activists, diplomats and politicians, and armed groups to build their capacities for preventing violence and using conflict as an opportunity for addressing the systems giving rise to oppression and grievance. Catherine is increasingly focused on designing whole-of-system deliberative dialogue processes aimed at systemic transformation and in training other practitioners in these methods. She has facilitated processes in locations ranging from the UN General Assembly Hall to village gathering places.

She is now an affiliate faculty member of the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding here at 91����Ƶ and a freelance practitioner and researcher. Dr. Barnes lives in Staunton, Virginia with her husband and son, with whom she loves to garden, to cook and to retreat into the wilds.

Theme music:
[Theme music resumes normal volume and plays till end]

patience:
All right, so we are here mostly to talk about how you have increasingly focused on designing whole-of-system deliberative dialogue processes, but before we do that, what was your path to CJP?

Catherine:
Hm, path to CJP! Well, I think CJP was, um, as a Virginian, as somebody who actually grew up in the mountains just out an hour and 15 minutes Southwest of CJP, of 91����Ƶ, um, it’s a place that I’ve of course known about since I was a teenager or, or…not CJP, but 91����Ƶ. And when I was doing my graduate studies at George Mason university in the early 90s, was when CJP was first getting started, and I remember actually coming to one of the workshops that John Paul Lederach did on “Elicitive Peacebuilding” gosh, before…maybe I can’t quite remember [Laughs], and then I was uh, cohort, in the cohort with Lisa Schirch and Jayne Docherty, and Barry Hart, this just a few years before me in the in the program at George Mason.

So I had been aware of CJP for quite some time, but I think it was when I was working, um, as an advisor with the Global Partnership for the Prevention of Armed Conflict, which led to, uh, a big UN conference on civil society’s roles in peacebuilding that Lisa Schirch and I reconnected, and we talked a lot and she was, um, she was very encouraging of, of sort of getting more involved. Um, and I think she connected with the Summer Peacebuilding Institute folks, and so I first taught at CJP…must have been 2006 or something…probably around then, um, “War to Peace Transitions” class and then just sort of opened up from there. And, um, and so for me, it’s, it was a way of, of coming back home to the mountains, um, bringing my family back with, and doing the work I love and felt incredibly, incredibly fortunate to, to connect with this community of practice that has had such a key role in the peacebuilding field, in my home place, and so I think those are some of those connections [laughs].

patience:
Wonderful! Where were you bringing your family back from?

Catherine:
Well, um, we had been living in Myanmar and before that, my husband’s a Londoner, we’d been living in East London, in Hackney and had a young son and, um, and in a way coming back to the mountains felt very, especially tempting to kind of raise a family. It’s just like more space and more ability to go out into the wilds, which was so much a part of my child and um, so yeah…quite a change though [laughs].

patience:
All right, wonderful, so, um, what is deliberative dialogue process?

Catherine:
Hmm, that’s a really good question. Um, so I think when I’m talking about deliberative dialogue, I’m talking about a bunch of different kinds of things. It’s, um, a way in which you have a fuller set of those who are involved in…whatever setting it is that, that is being mobilized, that is facing, um, some challenge that are wanting to address and do so by being able to draw out, uh, the really diverse and divergent perspectives and ideas and come into a kind of creative space where something new can be born. And so the dialogue is very much about this, um, setting the conversation in this, um, connection point between…at a human level, between those who are involved and the perspectives that they have to bring, so that…particularly if there’s been tension, conflict, um, or even indeed oppression, that you have this humanization of relationships and increasing the capacity to understand, analytically, perspectives that others have to bring and generating respect.

And the deliberation being much more of an analytic process of more clearly understanding what is at stake, what is going on and generating ideas for how to address it, criteria for how to address this kind of, in a way using the best thinking that exists within the group for figuring out a path forward. Um, so we can talk a little bit more about how those, the processes that are involved in helping to cultivate those distinctive ways of being together can, can be quite slight…different, but often for addressing our most complex challenges, you need both that dialogic…the dialogic that has the…deeply rooted in deep dialogue, as well as this kind of generative creative, tough thinking, um, together about what to do.

patience:
At its crux, is it just helping people communicate better, and understand each other better, and see each other better? Is that what it comes down to?

Catherine:
Well, I think for sure the communication function is there, absolutely. And I think it’s also drawing people into a different way of relating with each other and perhaps, um, at its best, opening people up into a sort of dynamic engagement with each other that draws out their most generous, creative, dynamic, uh, thinking and creating together. I’d say it is…and once again we can talk about things that, you know, it’s quite different when you’ve had, um, protracted conflict or in situations where there’s been, you know, systemic oppression –what’s involved in that is a bit different than, than say in a case we have a, um, a community or an organization or some sort of group that’s trying to, um, you know, do strategic planning or creating vision [laughs], I mean, those two can overlap, but the context will be different.

So communication for sure. And I think it’s something additional too, in addition to like the people involved, uh, in a way are challenged to, um, move outside of their habitual ways of being and thinking together, as well as how they communicate with each other. So the communication is like the, um, the medium, the sources, I think sometimes are…exist at other levels as well as the communication.

patience:
Yeah. As you said that I was thinking, I mean, how to actually get people to step out of their, for lack of a better word, may be mechanical responses, or maybe hearing what they want to hear, or maybe hearing what they’re capable of hearing [chuckles] so, designing things that can help make those boundaries porous or actually bring them down altogether, is probably what the goal of such a deliberate process would be…

Catherine:
Yeah, I think so. I think it can be, I think it kind of challenges people once again, to get out of their habitual ways of thinking, um, and in, in that sense it’s very creative and can be quite hard, can be quite surprising.

patience:
Can you say more about that?

Catherine:
Well, um, okay. So on one hand, let’s, let’s take, uh, uh, the ordinary course of something. Let’s say a group that’s trying to do strategic visioning and maybe they have tensions between each other, but there’s nothing, no, no, no like really big, big divide that’s between them, but they’re just kind of, you know, often locked into the thinking that they have had as they have been together along the course of things, and sometimes one of the things that, as a process designer, that’s quite important is to help people instead of, um, continuing along the way that they usually are together to, um, to come into a deeper connection with their human selves and all of their creativity, all their, their generativeness, perhaps risk a little, um, outside of their regular roles that they usually are to bring something more of themselves into the engagement, and um, instead of kind of dismissing things that seem outside of what’s typical, to kind of get together in a more creative generative way of thinking about things.

And often people don’t really want to do that –it’s risky. It also, I think, um, you know, it’s like Dilbert cartoons in many U.S. newspapers where it was like, “Oh, is this just another, you know, management speak” kind of thing, or is this something that’s, that’s real that we can do something, something new, and some groups love it. Some people love it, others are resistant. Then of course, if you have a lot of harm that has been done within the group, the challenge is at another order of magnitude altogether, um, in terms of what is needed to, to help create a container in which people can indeed understand each other differently, understand perhaps themselves differently, understand what is motivating them, who they are, why they are, in this context. Uhm, yeah.

Transition music:
[Transition music plays]

patience:
What motivates you? What has caused you to focus on this more and more as you go? If I remember one time in class and it was the first class of facilitation, and you talked about it having a very spiritual element for you, would you be willing to talk a bit about that?

Catherine:
Yeah, I mean, there are…so I come out of a tradition…was raised in the Quaker Universalist tradition, and one of the things that is, um, very foundational to Quaker, there’re lots of different kinds of Quakers, lots of different traditions, but one of the things I think is very foundational in the tradition that I came up in, is this notion that we gather together in silence and –silent meeting for worship– and seek the light of God moving within and have, as a part of this, this understanding that often in those spaces, there may be someone who feels moved to share something.

And sometimes that which is being shared kind of “speaks to my condition”, and it’s like, you, you, someone else speaks it, and when you hear it land in you, and that shifts things. Um, and sometimes I feel that that is present in, especially in deep dialogue where it’s like, uh, out of someone’s speaking from, from their truths, it resonates and feels like that of God that is, is moving amongst us. Um, and part of the, um, the, the tradition as well is that it is this discernment of the light of God within you. That is where guidance of truth is of how you move forward.

And yet [chuckles] there’s also, sometimes it’s hard to know what, what is that of God…the light of God, the light moving within, and what is that of ego [laughs], how do you differentiate? So this notion of kind of a collective discernment that, that if this is sort of something that emerges in these spaces where we come together in a sacred, in a sacred space for listening, for engaging, and I have definitely experienced, um, not all the time, but I have definitely experienced being a part of processes where it does feel like that of God is moving, um, within us and through us, and sometimes there’s that experience of very deep shifts happening. Um, so…

patience:
…that’s what you’re calling “collective discernment”?

Catherine:
Well, yes, I, for me, that’s that connection, especially in this sort of deep…when you’re in the midst of deep dialogue. And I, you know, when people who are involved in circle process, I think often, you know, that is also very much part of this holding a space, creating a space in which that is also invited in. And so I, I think, you know, many cultural traditions, many spiritual traditions, many religious practices may have that as their base, but it’s not authority that is on high and external to the group. It is something that’s generated through that collective discernment.

patience:
Do you have an, an example, a story that comes to mind for you, of when this happened?

Catherine:
Mm…

patience:
Take us there with you.

Catherine:
Um, it was something that had divided a whole, a very large institutional community for really, I guess, generations and was finally being brought forward as something that needed to be addressed in a very explicit way. And it was interesting because the divide that was present was between, in this group, uh, representatives of these two different groups who were kind of locked into competing truth claims, lived truth claims in contrast with each other.

And it was very powerful because at some point about halfway through the multi-day dialogue, people who were slightly to the margins because of their identity to the central issues began…who had also experienced, um, systemic oppression, um, began to speak out of their experience, which was once again to the side of the central issue that was, was contested, spoke with such power in clarity and humility that it shook everyone to their core, and you could just feel the weight and the power and really the awe of that, that encounter.

And, um, this happened in an evening and fortunately we were able to come back the next day and it was like, okay, well, let’s hold this now and pause. And we came back the next morning and we were at a completely different level in the conversation and people who had been very, um, formal in holding their position and their roles and their authority, um, in relation to this particular issue began to, to speak from their personal life’s experience and many, um, broke down in tears. And it was to say…it’s also maybe even more significant because many of them were men who were breaking down in tears, um, and when we came back to deliberations over the issue at hand afterwards, we were in a completely different place. And I think we reached agreements that perhaps no one had thought were going to be possible when we kind of entered into that, that space together. And it was, it was very moving…

patience:
And to, to get to that level, because obviously it sounds like there was a shift from where, from a place people didn’t necessarily feel that they trusted that they could bring these deeper, deeper parts of themselves forth, to where they could.

Catherine:
Mm-hm, mm-hm, yeah, I think so.

patience:
What do you think caused that change? I think you said it was people in the margins who shared their stories; who had to take that first step?

Catherine:
I think it had been building also, I mean, what was interesting is that as a group, we had a task to accomplish, and instead of getting straight to that task, I must confess, I think slightly to the alarm of maybe a third of the people who were part of the group, I was [laughs] taking through a longer slower process of doing some work around, you know, kind of a historic timeline of what had happened in the past and deliberation around that storytelling. Um, we’d done a lot of building the container of “how do we want to be together?” And I must say that in that process, trust was very explicitly on the issue…on the table as was power…

patience:
…for building the container?

Catherine:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, there’s a sense of like, look, “we don’t trust each other,” or well, some people “we don’t have any trust…we don’t have any trust, necessarily, that this process is going to get us anywhere, and trust has to be earned.” And that was explicitly on the table, as were the institutional power asymmetries that also existed in this context. And so I had designed the process of…fairly protracted process of engagement and dialogue around things and including, um, a chance for storytelling around what had happened in the past kind of collect…I mean, in terms of the history of what had gone on in this institution over a very long period of time.

And I think that those that, that walking through of history together had helped already, to set people up for understanding the complexities of how things had gotten to the place that they were at that moment, how the situation…where things were at in the situation, some stories had been hidden stories…or are not necessarily…had been suppressed stories, I should say, that had not really had a chance to be, uh, named and told in a fuller way until, you know, coming together at that time. So I think already, the people had been a bit shaken out of what they, especially those in more, um, institutional power positions, had been shaken out of their conventional narrative of what had gone on in the past.

So I think that there was already this, uh, we say, you know, social psychologists would say, you know, there was some cognitive dissonance that was going on, right? Unsettling is an important role…unsettling the conventional ways of thinking and believing, which unsettles also a sense of, of assurance about the rightness of one’s views. Um, and I, and so I think that there was, you know, I think that being already laid a bit and then, like I say, you know, and, and I think that this is one of the places where having a dialogue approach to this engagement where people could then come in a more spacious way and share, what it was that they were feeling at that point in time.

Because when this, when this kind of what I saw as a very pivotal moment in the process occurred, we were at that point in time in circle, we were in a reflective space, and this is when one person spoke of realization that the certainties that she had long held about a situation she could no longer be so certain about, and how it reminded her of her people’s, um, oppression in the past, and that then just unlocked a huge amount. I think the deliberative dialogue process design was developmental in intention, right? That’s, that’s where we get the process design principles, which give you a sense of, “okay, what, what might put certain conditions in play that will allow people to engage with each other in ways in which they don’t usually engage?”

And then what comes out obviously is in retrospect, and even at the moment, I think I felt this, like, “these are the moments of grace that cannot be predicted.” And if we are more skillful, as, um, as practitioners, we may be able to cultivate spaces in which those things may…where there’s, there’s enough room and space and movement, that things are shaken up enough, that new things can then…including that of God, instead of that, of ego [laughs].

patience:
That of God, instead of that, of ego!

Transition music:
[Transition music plays]

patience:
A number of times you’ve mentioned, um, “design principles,” what are they, uh, what are some of these that you can talk about?

Catherine:
So when I’ve been teaching about this, I mean, the luxury of a classroom is that you can talk about things like “theories,” um, in a way that you don’t tend to do when you’re actually a practitioner. But this is, I think in a way where we, where we see the kind of, um, connections between theories of, our “theories of change” and our “theories of practice.” Um, so our “theories of change” are going to be suggesting why you might have dialogue, in the first place, or deliberation, in the first place. What, what, what, “why would you bring people together in these, in these cases, at sometimes tremendous difficulty, sometimes tremendous expense?” Um, you know, it’s, “why would you do that?”

So there’s whole sets of things about that. Then you have “theories of practice,” which are, “how would you know what you do when people are together?” “What are the kinds of conditions that you’re putting into play that will help people have different kinds of experiences?” So when talking about dialogue, one of the things that we can often refer to is “how to create a ‘container’,” and I like to think about this notion of “container,” I mean, this is a metaphor that’s fairly widely used. And I tend to think of it as being like the alchemists of old, who had, you know, very carefully chose a vessel in which to put the different elements in, and to add some heat, to kind of have the transformative chemical reactions happening.

So a lot of times when you think about this as a process designer, you ask “what are some of those principles?” “What does the space look like?” “How are people coming together?” “How were they convened?” “How do their voices first come into their room?” “How did they start to engage?” Um, “what are the communication agreements?” Perhaps there’re guiding principles that are used, um, to help generate that conversation. “What are the experiential exercises that are put into place that may enable certain kinds of ways of conversing come to the place?” In many, many, many different ways that you could do this, but having that intentionality about it and having a sense –from a theories of practice– “if we do this, then this is more likely to happen,” are those…what I would think of as the “design principles,” underpinning dialogue, deliberation and decision-making. And so there is no hard…you know, this is not, um, this is…

patience:
…is not a formula?

Catherine:
It’s not a formula. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And you still, you know, the more that you become attuned and continually reflect upon and question, “why did that seem to have this effect?”…then you begin to understand certain patterns over time, um, that help us interact, because if systems are maintained by habitual patterns of interaction, how do you shift those patterns of interaction? By putting new patterns in so that people kind of engage with each other in a different way.

patience:
In a different way, right! What have you found…okay, so it’s not a formula; what is it that you’ve experienced when you’ve reflected and wondered? Why did that have that specific effect that you did not expect, that was a surprise to you, that you have carried on doing, and has it continued to have the same effect?

Catherine:
Right, right, right. Well, I can, I’ll give it, I mean, maybe I’ll give an example that I often use very early on, like always in the first, first class I teach, um [laughs], and this may help to unpack it. It’s a very small one, that I think it may illustrate um, so often do this in class, but I’ve also done this in groups where we’re going to be meeting…when we’re going to be together for say a number of days, or as group we’ll be engaging with each other for a period of time –it doesn’t work in a short period of time because it takes some time to do it. But I will invite people in a circle facing each other, having some, this kind of egalitarianism, um, physical patterning, to share something about their intentions for why we’re together and also to share a story of their name.

And I’ll usually begin by sharing a story of my name, in the circle, and so, oh, there’s often there’s so, people feel like a little bit nervous, but sometimes you hear people’s stories…you just suddenly get this, like this warmth of connection for them. Somehow people reveal much of themselves just by sharing that story. And we go around and always, and I usually feel that there’s some, um, some human connection that’s begun to…

patience:
…to formulate?

Catherine:
Yeah! It’s kind of starting to really like, “Oh, I see, I see you,” right? “I see you as a human.” I will say, I’ll tell a story about how once I was in a group, so this was, this is like a, a “theory of practice.” My theory is that at the very beginning of a group, forming, if people are invited to share something of themselves, it serves a number of functions that are humanizing, it also helps people to, to have their voice come into the group, for the first time. One of the things that we often see is the longer it takes for you to find your voice in a group, the harder it is to begin to…

patience:
…to engage…

Catherine:
…to engage with the group, right? It’s like the barrier just gets more and more and more intense. And those who are pretty confident with jumping in, their voices will get louder and louder and louder and take up more and more bandwidth, and so you see that in the group dynamics, starting off. But I find that this way, of going in a circle, sharing the story of the name is very…helps to break that barrier. It’s one that is not super risky –you can judge how poignant that story is, how revealing, how intimate that story is, you can make that judgment yourself, but it’s surprising. It’s a surprising prompt.

So that’s a kind of a theory of practice about why you would do something like that. I share that in contrast, one of the reasons why I first started thinking about it was that I was in, in, uh, you know, a workshop some years ago, and, uh, the facilitators had us setup so that we broke into pairs and told each other our story of our name, and then the partner told the story back in the group…

patience:
…oh, their partner’s story?

Catherine:
Yeah, and my partner got the story, got my story wrong [both laugh]. And I felt so like, I don’t know, like misrepresented in the group –it was like my voice had been stolen. You know, that was the way it felt. And that’s really a small thing of somebody else telling your story versus you telling your story, it makes a difference, right? Massive difference. So that’s what I mean, like uh, you know, it’s this, what are your priorities, “why would you use it and under what conditions?”

But then I also had an experience once because I’ve been doing this for years and years and years with policymakers, oh my goodness, diplomats when asked to tell such a, such an engagement, they get very uncomfortable because they’re like not just their role, right? It’s like their humanness has to come to the fore. That is very helpful, right? Very, very helpful exercise with the shaking, shaking that loose a bit. Once I did it…the first time I was in Myanmar and working with a group of mostly really senior leaders in the ethnic armed organizations, and um, we went around –and this fell completely flat because many of them had taken on, uh, Burma ethnic majority names, that was the names that they were known by– and their cultural tradition names have to do with the day of the week! “So what is your name?” “I’m so-and-so because I was born on Wednesday,” you know, next person, “I’m so-and-so because I was born on Saturday.” And I was like “oh my goodness!”

patience:
[laughing] What did you do?

Catherine:
It just like, I just felt like a fool! Like “what on earth is she asking us to do?”

patience:
Ooh, culture awareness!

Catherine:
Culture, always, always, always matters. I tell you what, I’ve never done that again in Myanmar and I’ve also never done an exercise without having someone, who knows culture well [laughs], to check things out and say, “how’s that likely to go down?”

patience:
Yeah, yeah.

Catherine:
So culture always, always affects the validity of our theories of practice. Um, so, another design rule [laughs], um, but these teeny tiny things can make a difference in terms of what kind of space is created and how people begin to engage and feel in that space with each other.

patience:
Speaking of Myanmar two weeks ago today, a military coup happened. What are your thoughts? What, what goes through your mind, given the context in which we’re speaking, uh, and your work there?

Catherine:
Yeah. Oh, I just feel so heartbroken. I feel so heartbroken. And I feel scared, scared for people who I have come to know and respect and indeed to love. Um, and I think, you know, I mean, there’s all, I mean, I won’t put my political analysis hat on because I think that’s not necessarily the focus of our conversation today. Um, but I think it really does reveal in many ways how the zero sum nature of, uh, of a power paradigm based on unilateral control, um, and coercion is so hard to shift. It’s so hard to shift and indeed I, I really feel in some ways like the ruling, um, NLD and its leader, Aung San Suu Kyi, um…

patience:
…NLD? What does that mean?

Catherine:
National League of Democracy that was the democratically elected government and the party of Aung San Suu Kyi, the president and Nobel peace prize winner, who in turn really had, um, a lot of the, uh, top-down authoritarian traditions of…that are cultural, and were, were rewarded in a lot of the political, um, culture of the society. But also as someone has, um, more than a decade working with people in the country, many ethnic nationality groups, but also uhm, of the majority community –you see the legacies of authoritarianism come into a leadership model, which, um, is really the antithesis of what we’re talking about in terms of deliberative dialogue, in terms of this…that actually, there’s a lot of wisdom in the collective, if you can draw it out, um, that you know, is very, very hard. Um, there’s just such a temptation to the power of coercion, um, in that, that is the legacy of authoritarianism.

And I think that those are the deep cultural and practical and societal shifts that many people in the country right now are wrestling with and trying to, to address, and will be, you know, some of the first to acknowledge that, you know, a culture of dialogue would be very helpful in terms of transforming the system that continues to reward and lock in authoritarianism. And I think this coup, I don’t have a good feeling about it and I, you know, and as the crackdown is already starting and I, I there’s, um, there was nothing in Myanmar’s past that, um, that leads me to think that that this time will be much different and how much this may set back the people as a whole.

And I just, people are so brave and courageous and creative right now and their, their, their willingness to stand up I’m in such admiration for, um, and I think that they are motivated by this sense of having had the taste of something different beginning, having the potential to, to begin to unfold, having that settled. And again, um, it’s motivating them to take risks that they know are very, very severe, so can pray for them and stand by in solidarity of anything that I can do. If you’re listening out there, please, please, please, don’t hesitate to reach out.

patience:
Yeah, yeah. It’s quite shocking what’s happened there.

Catherine:
Yeah. Yeah. CJP has many graduates from there, and I, I think with…to the extent that they’re, CJP folks, you know, the more that…know that we love you, we care about you, we’re thinking of you. Um, and as, as a community, let us know what we can do to support you. That’s my call out.

patience:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you have hope in, I know they’re going against very, very, I don’t know, powerful forces, but are there resilient tools that you think are within the community that might help them…might help carry them through this?

Catherine:
I always, I always have hope [hopeful laugh]. This is the time when there will be the challenge of thinking together about how to do that communication, like having the complexity of people who are differently situated, um, from different parts of society, um, each of whom may have different resources, different angles, different perspectives, both to survive, and also to create the basis for a new kind of politics. This is a time when, in a way, those deliberative dialogue approaches become very powerful.

I mean, I, I often will say that it’s actually, it’s within, um, movements that you almost need these skills even more, to try to think about “how do we, how do we generate something that will be different in nature, different in kind than the old system that had been oppressive?” And so, you know, the deliberative dialogue approaches are not only for those across the conflict divides, but they’re also from within movements for thinking how to create a more pluralist, more open, more democratic, more accountable, um, and responsive politics in the future, in society, in the future.

And so to the extent that, um, some of the democracy movement that was born out of 1988 when Aung San Suu Kyi was very much the face of that movement, arguably, um –I’m not saying this across the board– but arguably there was still quite a strong top-down authoritarian nature to that. And there wasn’t…other than, um, and once again, I’m saying this with very broad brushes — I know that there were people who, who did have a different kind of vision– but I think a lot of it was an opposition to the military regime and perhaps often less focus beyond a kind of rhetorical commitment to democracy and freedom, um, to what were the grounds for that? What would that actually really look like? How do we cultivate this in how we engage with each other today, in the present?

And we look at sometimes, um, you know, very, uh, movements around the world that have been very effective in overturning authoritarian regimes; the energy and, and indeed of colonialism in previous generations had such a focus on what we are opposed to, and, and less in what is our vision for the future that we want to create together, what are the principles that we want? What, what is it that we’re working towards as well as what we are working against? And sometimes it’s those periods of time, um, when in exile, when in the margins that there’s, there’s this space that, that the space that’s been cultivating that, um, patience, you know, we had this from, from years ago in South Africa and the, um, the Freedom Charter process of the…

patience:
[Chuckles] I was just thinking of that!

Catherine:
Yes, yes, yes. One of the, you know, very innovative mass deliberative dialogue processes that led to the Freedom Charter process and really in many ways, shaped the movement and resistance…the liberation movement and resistance to apartheid for a generation, was born out of a focus on what is it that we want, what is the, what is the South Africa that we dream to create? And uh, maybe I can just share a little bit about the story about how that process unfolded…

patience:
Please do!

Catherine:
There was, it was the very early beginnings of the African National Congress and the leadership that, that formed it. Um, it began with as a, really, as an organizing…very powerful in my view, um, organizing process of sending out animators into communities, workplaces…face, um, face, uh, uh, communities across the country, um, inviting people to have conversations locally about, um, the future that they wanted to create.

And they had a question that to my mind was also always a very powerful question, very open-ended. And if I remember rightly it was “what would need to change in South Africa, for you to live a full and abundant life in terms of individual, of community, and of country?” And we look at the architecture of that question is, “what would need to change” –very specific, very outcomes oriented, very practical in some ways.

patience:
Right.

Catherine:
And then we have this phrase: “to live a full and abundant life.” [Laughs] Okay, I don’t know about you, but if someone were to ask you right now, “what would you need to live a full and abundant life?” Oh, wow, um, wow –how do I answer that? You know it’s very like…

patience:
I would take a week to come back with my answer.

Catherine:
Exactly! It really just opens things up, and it does not have an easy answer to it, right? It is a very richly textured answer. And then: ‘in terms of individual’, which kind of revealed that even as a member of community, we are not the same. We are not monolithic. We are…our individuality matters. And I think that can create that space for intersectionality to open up. It wasn’t called that at the time, but it is. Um, and then “as community’, because we are members of community, and I think in this thing that very specific, um, uh, sort of ethnic cultural, racial community as well as perhaps in some cases, geographic community, and then ‘as country,’ because we are also together as a whole.

So this many layered, um, question and people were to, uh, to talk about that and then to choose someone who they felt could best represent their views in coming to this Freedom Charter, uh, Congress. And they had to raise the money to send people and people traveled at great hardship um, the police were already starting to crack down, to a dusty field outside of Johannesburg, and um, surrounded by a police cordon, you know, not conducive, no hotel conference center –to deliberate this, and out of it came the Freedom Charter that, uh, many years later was incorporated into the preamble of the, the new constitution…

patience:
Constitution.

Catherine:
South African constitution, yeah, yeah. And it held that vision, uh, together for regeneration.

patience:
It makes me teary eyed just thinking about it. That’s, yeah, quite amazing.

Catherine:
What happens in South Africa today; we still are not talking about paradise, but we are talking about something really meaningfully different than was during apartheid.

patience:
Yeah, yeah. And these things take time. I don’t know, it’s…you build upon something that a previous generation built and then others come and build upon it. And it’s a long arduous process.

Catherine:
This is one of the, one of the, uh, in the process design for conflict transformation class we’re having right now, which is this , um, this real paradox between, yeah…looking back on the historicity of how change happens over time and how, in a way these deliberative dialogue processes, um, may have served a really powerful turning point, whether say Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland’s Women’s Coalition, I would think the Greensboro Truth and Reconciliation Commission, you know, many places that we can look to –yet the price of time against the fierce, what I can only think of as, like the fierce urgency of now! Being oppressed, abused now, and how to make that change and I…that managing that time conundrum, that is really hard. I think it’s one of those really, really difficult, difficult, um, in terms of like, we need, we need to, to, to shift the structures now, yet can those structures shift without this shifting that happens from the transformation.

patience:
It makes me think of the concept of attachment in Buddhism…

Catherine:
Mmm…

patience:
…and bringing it together with, um, with a proverb, an African proverb, that has to do with planting trees upon, under which…under whose shade you will not sit, it’ll be future generations that sit…um, and that tension being in the here and now, hopefully for us who feel driven or called upon to do things, to do them with the confidence that we are doing the right thing, but to not be attached to them in a way that will break us; but to do it and knowing that it may not benefit me now, it may not benefit me or the people that I love tomorrow. But I think, I am convinced, that this will benefit people who live a hundred generations from now –having that long view is probably…to me, it’s sustaining.

Catherine:
Yeah! Isn’t that a radical shift in mindset from what is our dominant cultural norm? And it’s…and I think sometimes, you know, talking about the, within the Buddhism, it’s like the samskaras [the habitual physical, mental and emotional patterning/habits] as our attachments to things that want. The haste that can sometimes, um, cause us to make mistakes that have tremendous opportunity costs of, you know, we just impose our will now, and not having that…creating the backlash that has the opportunity cost. Um, and yeah, so it’s like we need to be as efficient as possible or as efficacious as possible, strategic as possible in the now, and also realizing that we are probably talking about generational changes. So if we have that vision for the generational change that is needed, then maybe the moves that we make in the present can help lead us there.

patience:
Yes.

Catherine:
Which is I think the, the wisdom you are, kind of taking us back into our, our, um, our theories of change, you know, the time horizons that, um, Elise Boulding talked about and John Paul Lederach captured in his like Time Horizons for Change –awareness of the past, that lies before us…

patience:
[Both laugh] …yes, walking into the future backwards…

Catherine:
…walking into the future backwards, and then to be able to imagine that which we have never seen before and to begin planting those, those seeds in the present, for the future, yeah.

patience:
Right, yeah, yeah.

Transition music:
[Transition music plays]

patience:
What do you think about all that given what happened here in this country and what happened in Myanmar two weeks ago, but what happened in this country…five weeks ago now? On January 6th? What have been your thoughts about how we should be dialoguing here within ourselves, within the country? Because, we are severely fractured.

Catherine:
We’re so severely fractured! And in a way, you know, it is, uh, we are in the midst of such profound cultural revolution, and I think we’re in the midst of the backlash to that cultural revolution. Um, and so it’s, it’s not surprising in, especially in the midst of this, um, in the midst of the pressure cooker of the pandemic.

Um, I mean, cause this is a global phenomena, as you, as you’ve mentioned, this rise of authoritarianism, and I think the fact that we are in the midst of this historic period of time, in which the old power structures of white supremacy and patriarchy that had been, so hegemonically present, that they were almost invisible in their great weight…um, I mean they were not invisible to those who were suffering under them, excuse me, I should, I should make that completely clear; but the power of them to maintain them and replicate themselves was in that hegemonic power that was happening and I think, um, you know, the, the, you know, decolonization movements, the, um, many waves of, of, uh, feminist and womanist thought, and now the, you know, the, the, the gender revolution, I think the struggle, which is, um, which I think has, has gained really tremendous momentum in very, historically, you know, generationally speaking, it’s really coming to a crux, right. I think right now that that backlash of those who feel everything that has changed –those who had been beneficiaries of that system– who feel everything has changed and then pulled out amongst them, and they fear the certainty of their identity that had been based on that construction that’s being left behind, I think in some ways it is in that void.

I’m not saying this to justify or to, to, to express sympathy, but I’m just saying it from an analytic empathy point of view that we need to understand. I think that there’s something of recognizing we have to kind of hold on in the midst of this and to see what kind of future can be built in which those…like for instance, those I grew up with, in the mountains, in the Appalachian mountains of Virginia, which is, you know, surrounding us here in, you know, to the west of us, in the Shenandoah Valley, almost everybody –when I went to school in Bath County, there were two thousand people in the school system, it’s down to 450 now because people who had had jobs, and jobs that could support families, almost…many have lost them.

patience:
Are gone.

Catherine:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um, and then you just don’t know where to turn anymore and you know, and now when I go to my home place in Bath County, I have never seen so many Confederate flags flying, ever, and it’s scary. It’s frightening. Um, and I know that there’s, that there is a way in which it’s what [sighs], oh, it’s so hard to unpack this and this would be like a whole ‘nother conversation, I fear, to be able to unpack it.

patience:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Catherine:
Um, so I’m not sure whether we want to go there or not. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just, I just think we don’t have time. It’s like, how, how do those folks feel that there’s a place and a future for them that looks different than what the old ones had to do. And there’s certain things like being able to have access to guns are really big part of it, and lot of…everybody, I know were always hunters, and for some reason it gets transposed as like your hunting rifle is going to be stolen from you, which is just absurd. And yet it hits at some identity strand that is very powerful.

And I don’t, I don’t, it’s very hard for me cause I have been trying to figure out how to have those kinds of deliberative dialogue conversations here in my community, in Staunton. We’ve been trying to do this for about five years and pretty much from the standpoint of local African-American leadership, wanting to have dialogues for racial justice and racial healing and trying to figure out what is the basis of having folks with those views, who are a part of this conversation. We have not yet been able to figure out how to gain purchase and have those conversations. And I, I wish I really wish I knew, um, we’re working with it, we are trying, we are trying to figure out the way forward.

And of course it’s not just about the deliberative dialogue, right? It’s the political purchase that is gained by politicians who mobilize around that. So it has to be a political strategy and organizing and mobilizing strategy that is alongside this as well. And of course, as long as that’s happening, it escalates the conflict further, which is, but that, in a way it’s almost like this needs to happen right now, right? You know, the, the, the organizing the mobilizing. Um, but somehow if that politics can be one of realizing that part of the inclusiveness also needs to somehow be a way of figuring out how to…these other folks be able to get included. I, I, I’m wrestling.

patience:
It’s very difficult, yeah.

Catherine:
I’m wrestling.

patience:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully –as we wrestle– we’ll figure something out. Hopefully, we’ll keep our hope alive.

Catherine:
One of the things is that there’s, and I think, you know, that one of the projects that I’ve been working on now, just in my writing and thinking for a number of years is, um, is around how to shift out of conflict habituated systems by ending our addiction to coercion. And I think you can have, uh, organizing or mobilizing that is around the principles of justice that must be, it must be advanced without having a language of discourse, of framing in which it’s, it’s reliant on unilateral victory over the other.

patience:
Over the other –a zero sum mentality…

Catherine:
That, zero sum mentality –and I think that that is in a way, what we as a field, whether from the restorative justice peacebuilding standpoint, have always had that as our foundation…

patience:
…in terms of transformation?

Catherine:
Yeah, of continuing to recognize the humanity in the fundamental, um, uh, dignity of all, which means that also those who we see as the problem needing to be a part of the solution. And so once again, this is, I think, going to take time, it’s going to be played out over some time, but I think the foundational principles that guide us as in our approach really do have something to speak into that process of the politics that we create in response to this time.

patience:
The politics that we create, huh? [Both laugh] I’m afraid, at least the time that we’re living in, there’s so much to be gained by, um, making people angry and making people feel victimized, uh…

Catherine:
Mm-hm, yes.

patience:
…and a lot of people are raising a lot of money by driving those narratives and they have no incentive to stop, is what I am afraid…

Catherine:
Yes. And I think it’s that, how do we shift those incentive structures? How do we shift those incentives, right? And I think, I mean, if anything, I think that that is the place where, um, the deliberative function that we’re talking about, of bringing people across the aisle, you know, the strategic, the strategic folks who are not necessarily as…who, who have a broader vision for the society and for the world that we need to be working towards, to think together about “how do we get out of this trap, given the incentive structure of our, of our politics and our economy right now?” And “how do we think anew about how we organize things?” Sometimes, as you know from systems thinking, it’s, it’s small shifts that can have tremendous results in terms of shifting things.

And so just as, you know, in a way it’s the, um, the communications revolution that was enabled with smartphone technology, has enabled these new kind of politics of mass movements of various kinds and also extremism, which has had a tremendous, tremendous boost by just enabling people to communicate outside the established communication lines…has, you know, enabled that. And I mean, who would have ever thought that this small device that I can hold that is slightly larger than my palm would have within it a power to connect anyone simultaneously around the planet? Um, you know, what are some other kinds of analogies and are, um, the ways in which we communicate that can shift things? Um, that’s a deliberation question because the thinking that has gotten us into this situation, as Einstein would counsel us, is not going to be the thinking that gets us out of it.

patience:
[Laughing] So not doing the same thing and expecting different results?

Catherine:
[Laughs] Precisely!

patience:
Drop the insanity? [Both laugh].

Catherine:
Precisely.

patience:
Um, Catherine, how do you think, uh, designing deliberative processes that work is helped by, uh, interweaving or intermingling different, um, you know, like trauma, having some kind of knowledge around trauma so that…because everyone has a form of trauma –which we can’t compare one person’s trauma to the next; how it affects them is what matters. And they bring those parts of themselves to any deliberative dialogue process. How do you think we weave such specialties that are within the peacebuilding field to actually make deliberative processes successful?

Catherine:
Yeah! Oh, patience, that’s such a good question. Um, and I must admit, I feel, I feel one of the things that’s so wonderful about having this relationship within CJP is that, you know, if…so I’m going to back up just a little bit with that, because I think it’s an interesting one in terms of like cutting-edge in the thinking about this. One of the things that’s wonderful about CJP is that there’s all these folks who do this, uh, kind of deliberative processes that come out of the organizational development field working for, I don’t know, fortune 500 companies and may draw on these ideas in, but not, you know, it’s not the forefront necessarily. And then there’s folks in the public, um, you know, public consultation, public participation inside the field, and then there’s restorative justice.

And I think that within CJP we can draw on this and I think especially this marriage of restorative justice, the best of peacebuilding approaches to dialogue, organizational development, um, innovativeness, and I think it’s the trauma informed that ends up having the potential to really shift things at a very deep level. And I think we’re, we, we, I certainly have learned a lot from colleagues at CJP about thinking about how to, um, enable more trauma informed spaces, and I think it’s something, um, this is what…like a shout out to colleagues and friends in the STAR community of like, wouldn’t it be cool to collaborate more in thinking about that together and how we can really develop that, especially when we start talking about processes that are starting to move more, to scale more people, um, in them, how do we do that?

Because you’re right, people are bringing that in with them and if, if processes are not, are not in a way healing in how they are created, um, as well as at a minimum being trauma-informed –that deep level work that we were talking about earlier, I think it’s going to be really hard to happen. It’s going to be really…because people holding themselves so tight, so as to protect themselves –whether they are aware of it or not– that it is very hard to shift and change together.

patience:
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you.
Um, as we head toward closing here, what is the story of your name?

Catherine:
[Laughs] My full name is Mary Catherine Barnes and, um, my, my parents, um, always said, I just really loved the sound of Mary Catherine, and the funny thing is, is that my mother’s name was Mary and her mother’s name was Mary and her mother’s name was Mary, and I have an aunt Mary, and they always insist that being Mary Catherine had nothing to do with it being a family name [laughs]. They decided to call me Cathy, when I was little, because they didn’t want, my mother didn’t want to have happen to me, what happened to her, that when she was a little girl, she was “little Mary” and her mother was “big Mary.”

And yet her mother was this very petite five-foot-two woman and my mother –who was a very beautiful woman– but had the kind of growth spurt that often happens with girls when she was reaching about 11 and soon was five-two, five-four, five-six, and, um, became five-nine and felt like she was this huge hulking, um, person next to her petite mother. And, and she always thought it was especially cruel being called “little Mary” in that context and so decided to avoid that altogether by calling me “Cathy.” And then when I left school, I was…the high school, I, I wanted to be seriously and I thought, “no one’s ever gonna take someone named ‘Cathy’ seriously,” and so I shifted it to Catherine, which sounded altogether more dignified [both laugh], I don’t think of that much now but sometimes I look back at that young adult person and think it is pretty funny.

patience:
Did you feel taken seriously after you…?

Catherine:
Oh, no [both laughs].

patience:
[Laughter continues] Maybe it’s yet to happen, don’t lose hope…

Catherine:
One of the beautiful things about getting older, at least for me is that, that no longer matters so much [laughs].

patience:
Yeah, getting older makes these things become less as important.

Catherine:
Yeah.

patience:
All right, well, great. Is there anything else you would like to mention before we finish that we didn’t cover?

Catherine:
Just extreme appreciation for you and for all that you’re doing patience, you bring such a wonderful gift to this whole, this whole endeavor.

patience:
Well, thank you. Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you for taking the time and for sharing your thoughts.

Catherine:
Mm, my pleasure. My pleasure. It’s…ahh, none of this is easy…

patience:
…no it’s not.

Catherine:
Yet it just feels, so uh, it feels some ways like it’s one of the, one of the only hopes of the way forward; I really do genuinely believe is shifting our conventions and how we come together to deal with our most complex, difficult and divisive challenges. And I do really feel that this is one of those, those keys is through this way of being together and through deliberative dialogue. And so for me, it’s uhm yeah, firm commitment to keeping on working.

patience:
It’s becoming your life’s work?

Catherine:
I hope so. I hope.

patience:
Yeah, yup. Inshallah!

Catherine:
Inshallah!

patience:
Thank you so much.

Catherine:
Thank you, patience. Take care.

patience:
You too! Bye-bye.

Catherine:
Bye-bye.

patience:
Dr. Barnes has written widely on peace processes, civil society roles in peacebuilding, and on issues related to state building, conflict prevention, genocide and minority rights. She is especially known for the groundbreaking Conciliation Resources Accord Publication in 2002, as well as for her role in the 2005 Global Conference at the UN on Civil Society Roles in Conflict Prevention and for documenting these roles in the publication People Building Peace II.

Outro Music:
[Outro music begins and fades into background]

patience:
All the music you hear on this podcast has been composed by the one and only, , our audio mixing engineer extraordinary, is . And, I am the podcast executive producer, audio recording engineer, editor and host patience kamau. As you are able, please remember to subscribe, rate and review this podcast so that other peacebuilders may find it. We’ll be back with a new episode in two weeks. Thanks so much for listening and join us again, next time.

Outro Music:
[Music resumes normal volume and plays till end]

The first episode features Dr. Vernon Jantzi, currently director of academic programs here at 91����Ƶ’s Center for Justice and Peacebuilding (CJP) and a co-founder of the center more than 25 years ago. Janzti served as director and co-director from 1995-2002.

Jantzi begins the interview with a story of fascinating coincidence: how his visit to a rural community while on alternative service in Nicaragua became the subject of a 10-minute extemporaneous speech in Spanish and how that topic led, not to an assistantship at Cornell to teach the language, but instead a full scholarship to earn his doctorate in sociology.

He also discusses how his work with land reform in Costa Rica led to an exploration of mediation and peacebuilding, followed by a collaboration with John Paul Lederach, then also teaching in the sociology department at 91����Ƶ, to create a graduate program in conflict transformation.

Now 26 years later, Jantzi reflects on the changes he’s seen in CJP and how the center is reimagining itself in ways that are responsive to the current political environment in the United States but also to its global network of alumni.

“…Working with people in different parts of the world, they’d say, ‘well, you know, it’s great to have you here …But you know, if you really wanted to make a difference, you’d go back and you would change the way your government relates to the rest of the world, or you would do this,’” Jantzi said. “…That’s the exciting part about being at CJP right now.”

Respect, dignity, an awareness of the need to honor past history and trauma to promote current healing and how we do this at the national and local levels — Jantzi sees these approaches as key values for CJP now and in the coming months.

Jantzi’s longtime connection to peacebuilding work in Mexico offers a case study for the importance of trust and cooperation among community members. Successful efforts to “rebuild the social fabric” in that region now integrate elements of restorative justice, trauma healing and truth-telling, he says.

Guest

Dr. vernon jantzi

Vernon Jantzi, PhD in Sociology, helped found CJP and directed/co-directed the program from 1995-2002.�� While working with the Costa Rican “Land Reform” program in the early 80s he discovered and denounced to the US National Security Council and the House Subcommittee on Hemispheric Affairs the US-funded covert insurgency against the Nicaraguan Revolution from Costa Rica. Dr. Jantzi helped write the first academic curriculum for the University for Peace with Francisco Barahona and later 91����Ƶ’s Conflict Transformation Program with John Paul Lederach. He led the feasibility study for 91����Ƶ’s Center for Interfaith Engagement and coordinated its early program activities. In 2000-01 he lived in New Zealand as a Massey University Scholar in Residence where he and his wife, Dorothy, wrote a history of Restorative Justice in the country. Since 2009 Dr. Jantzi has focused on peacebuilding-and-justice-informed psycho-social work with CJP’s STAR Program—Strategies for Trauma Awareness and Resilience.

Transcript

Vernon:
So the program was very interdisciplinary and really focused, I would say much more broadly than just mediation, which is often ended up focusing on “how do you mediate peace accords?” Right? And what we said was, “yes, we want to know how you mediate peace accords,” but for the peace accords we had discovered, or we had learned from our experience in these different places that for the peace accords to be successful, they really had to be embraced by the population at the grassroots.

Theme music begins:
[Theme music plays and fades to background]

patience:
Hi, everybody happy Wednesday to you! Welcome back to Peacebuilder, a conflict transformation podcast by the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding. My name is Patience Kamau and our first guest this season is:

Vernon:
Vernon Jantzi, professor of sociology emeritus at 91����Ƶ in the Center for Justice and Peacebuilding.

patience:
Vernon Jantzi, PhD in Sociology, helped found CJP and directed/co-directed the program from 1995-2002. While working with the Costa Rican “Land Reform” program in the early 80s he discovered and denounced to the US National Security Council and the House Subcommittee on Hemispheric Affairs the US-funded covert insurgency against the Nicaraguan Revolution from Costa Rica.

Dr. Jantzi helped write the first academic curriculum for the University for Peace with Francisco Barahona and later 91����Ƶ’s Conflict Transformation Program with John Paul Lederach. He led the feasibility study for 91����Ƶ’s Center for Interfaith Engagement and coordinated its early program activities. In 2000-01 he lived in New Zealand as a Massey University Scholar in Residence where he and his wife, Dorothy, wrote a history of Restorative Justice in the country. Since 2009 Dr. Jantzi has focused on peacebuilding-and-justice-informed psycho-social work with CJP’s STAR Program—Strategies for Trauma Awareness and Resilience.

Theme music begins:
[Theme music fades back in and ends]

patience:
So let’s talk about how you got to, uh, 91����Ƶ/CJP, which was formerly CTP…tell me that story.

Vernon:
It was very interesting in that um, I graduated from, uh, EMC as it was called then with a degree in languages and music basically. And so I ended up going to Central America to do my alternative service military service in Central America. And there I learned to, uh, know, some Cubans who were refugees from Cuba and they were setting up an adult literacy program for all of Central America, South America and Central America.

And I was supposed to work with them to help them put together these materials and so forth. So that was my introduction to Latin America. Although I had studied Spanish and German as part of my college experience. When I returned, I wanted to do linguistic studies so that I could do more work around, uh, creating material for adult readers who were just new readers, but I didn’t have any money.

So I decided I would, I would apply to a number of universities and if I got a scholarship or a teaching assistantship, then I would go to that university and be fine. Well, to make a long story short, it ends up, ended up that Cornell University was one of those universities that accepted me and said, we need 10 minutes of extemporaneous Spanish from you, uh, of the living in Nicaragua at the time. And so I couldn’t go for a personal interview, but they said, if you send us a tape with 10 minutes of extemporaneous Spanish, uh, we will decide whether we give you an assistantship and teaching, to teach Spanish. So I sent it off and I decided, well, I don’t know what to talk about.

So I had just been in Mexico and visited a very remote village that was, uh, had transformed itself from a very poor village to a really progressive village with all kinds of cooperatives and clinics and stuff, which they never had before. And my Mexican host said, you really need to, if you’re interested in development, you really need to visit that village. So I did.

And then I decided, well, you know, I don’t know what else to talk about, so I’ll just describe the village, you know, and you can use all the different structures to talk about, you know, the mountains and the people and so forth.

And so I spent a lot of time on detail, sent it off to Cornell, didn’t hear anything for a long time. And then I got a note and said, um, we are not going to give you the assistantship you had applied for, but we’re going to give you the presidential scholarship instead, which is the best scholarship Cornell university gives, and there’re only like 14 of them for the entire university. It will pay all of your expenses plus a living allowance of $9,000 a year. And, um, and it’s for the, for the whole time that you’re there for your doctoral studies. So I was going to get a PhD. So I said, well, you know, everybody has a price and that seems to be mine. So I’m going to Cornell. [Laughter]

patience:
All right! Full ride,I tell yah…

Vernon:
Right! So then I got there and I said, Oh, one of the professors, the linguistics department ended up, showed up at the church that I attended, and so one day I asked him, I said, “Joe, I have no idea how I got this scholarship,” because my grades were not that great because I enjoyed college too much when I was a freshman and sophomore, so that my grades were really poor, and I had like a 2.6 GPA.

patience:
Overall?

Vernon:
Overall my whole, for my four years, right, and…

patience:
Oh you had a good time in college!

Vernon:
I did, I really had a lot of fun. It was good for me. [both laugh].

patience:
Good.

Vernon:
Then I said, I don’t know how I got this because Cornell just does not give this kind of scholarship to somebody with a 2.6 GPA. And he laughed and said, well, these tapes are distributed randomly when they come in and I happened to get your tape. And I started listening to it and I said, no, no, no, there’s something wrong here.

So I went back and started over again and it was right. He said, I used to live in that town. And I knew all those people that you talked about. And so when you described them, they were exactly like I remembered them and the mountains were like, I remembered them. And I said, why am I listening to this? There’s some reason he said, so I said, the only thing I could think of was to recommend you for this scholarship from the university, and they believed me, he said, and that’s how you got it [both laugh].

Then I had, um, been invited to go to Harvard, to join the Institute for International Development as the Latin American specialist on that at Harvard, then I got a call from EMC and the Dean said, you know, our sociology professor just left and we’re starting this new international agricultural program, which was for small farmers across the world. And we really need somebody like you –by then I had switched to sociology, so I was studying rural sociology– like you to do this, to help us with this new major. And could you just come and let us interview you? And I said, well, I’ve already committed to go some place. They said, well, just come, just come.

So I came and we enjoyed it. And since I had the good scholarship, I didn’t have any debts. So I said, I don’t need to go to Harvard. I could come here. Right. And so I canceled my commitment to Harvard and came here and, uh, and, uh, the rest is history.

patience:
Thank God! That’s fantastic. And then, your time at 91����Ƶ and I mean, EMC then became 91����Ƶ, um, and then you…that led you to co-founding CJP or least being part of it. Can you tell us about that?

Vernon:
Yes. Um, as part of my work at Cornell, one of the things that, uh, they wanted me to do was to do some work in Costa Rica with Cornell. So, uh, when I came here, I had some commitments yet to Cornell that I needed to do. And I ended up being in Costa Rica, working as advisor to the land reform program in Costa Rica

patience:
Land reform program. What was that?

Vernon:
Yeah, well, the land reform was when they called it land reform, but really what it was was, uh, peasants who didn’t have land or their land was being bought up in the areas where they were, they couldn’t afford to keep it, they had to sell it. So then they would sell their land and then they were landless. So they would, um, invade and, you know, organize a hundred families or whatever, and overnight they would invade large land holdings that were, there were land areas in Costa Rica that the banana companies, international banana companies, would keep as fallow ground.

And so that ground would, that land was prime land to be invaded because there was nothing there in the sense of, it was lying fallow. And so then, um, and so they, the, that land was invaded, other lands were invaded where farmers had large, large land holdings. Then the land reform was, would go in and buy the land. And because Costa Rica didn’t just go in and kill people for invading the land, like a lot of other countries. So they would buy the land from the farmer, expropriate the land and pay the farmer, what the farmer had declared its value to be for tax purposes.

And so the farmer couldn’t complain, even though they did, because they said, well, you’re not giving us the value our land. And the government would say, well, that’s what you declared, and we’re just giving you what you said it was worth for tax purposes.

And so that’s how I got to Costa Rica and land and the land reform program, um, before I came here then, and that’s how I ended up doing some of the stuff related to CJP because, uh, while I was there with the land reform program, I met John Paul Lederach. He was there doing his dissertation research and we stood beside each other at a Thanksgiving hymn sing and he sang very well, and so he said, “Oh, it’s finally nice, nice to stand beside somebody else who can sing.” And so… [both laugh].

patience:
…two Mennonites…

Vernon:
…we sang together. And so he wanted to know what I was doing. I said, “well, I’m with the land reform.” And he said, “well, I’m researching how Costa Ricans deal with conflict.”

patience:
Did you know each other before that? Or was this your first encounter?

Vernon:
No, no, it was the first encounter. And so I said, “well, in the land reform program, we need somebody who’s interested in that kind of thing, because when these farmers invade the land, there’s all kinds of conflict with people own the land and even the communities around. And so you need to help me look at the conflict around land reform.” And he said, “well, I’m working on conflict mediation,” I think it was the term he used then. And I said, “well, you know, what we really need to be thinking about, and we ought to work on this together is –how do you build a structure so that you actually build peace and peaceful structures? So, like in the communities that are just forming after the land invasions, these people are forming their own communities, and that’s where you want to build the structures that actually build peaceful structures. How do we build peace, not just mediate?”

So he got excited about that. So the two of us then had that connection. And when I came back, I was on leave from 91����Ƶ at that time, uh, and so when I came back from my leave, I said, “well, we need to hire John Paul Lederach to come and help us with our peace and justice program.” So that’s how we got started, and John Paul then eventually came and then we sat down and we were in the same department –he was in the sociology department. And so we brainstorm some more on some of these ideas that we had batted around in Costa Rica, four or five years earlier, and eventually ended up talking to a number of other people — Hizkias Assefa, Ron Kraybill, Ricardo Esquivia, Pablo Stucky a number of people from different parts of the world who, with whom we’d had contact about this idea, of a graduate program in conflict transformation, and that’s what we called it.

So that’s how that actually fell together eventually, you know, put in all the proposals and went through all the red tape that you need to do to start a new program, and eventually we, we had the thing up and going. So it’s an amazing, it’s amazing, uh, in a sense of how it actually came together, because these people that we knew from our other work were really interested in doing something like that, because they said, this is really what we need. Hizkias was at that point, living in Kenya, Nairobi and Stucky and Esquivia were in Columbia. So we had Latin American voice and a Kenyan voice at least well, Hizkias is from Ethiopia, but so we had a voice…

patience:
East African voice…

Vernon:
At least an East African voice, one voice at least. And so they said, so when you, when you design this program, you can’t design it just by yourself here in North America, because if you do, it’ll be too North American centric, and so you need to listen to us.

So for three years, we had what we called a strategic, uh, network, which was a network between the Latin American, East African and Harrisonburg, uh, sort of nodes, if you will, so each person, each of those different places contributed something different to the program. And the original idea was that it would be very heavily uh mentorship program so that people who wanted to study peacebuilding would be assigned –so they might apply to 91����Ƶ to get the, uh the academic backing, and then they would do some studying, but basically they would be assigned to East Africa or to South America, or Colombia, to work along with these people and their colleagues who were working on the ground. And that’s how you would learn by being mentored.

So you would, so you could only take a small number of students, right? Because you know, you can’t do 50 students by having them follow you around and work with you and be an apprentice for you. That was the idea originally, but we saw that academic, uh, economically that was not viable. You just couldn’t make that work economically and still be part of an institutional structure like 91����Ƶ or some other universities where you would give academic credit for this, right?

patience:
Right, because it is hard to gauge how to give that credit…

Vernon:
Right? How would you actually justify to some accrediting agency that, you know, kicking around out in the forest someplace is going to contribute to peacebuilding, its hard to measure that stuff! We eventually started the program with a very heavy emphasis on, on mentorship so that the students would have…be assigned to a professor with whom they would work very closely. They would design their own program. So you, you would say, “well, I want to do, uh, this type of work…,” and so you would sit down and you would talk about, well, what kinds of things do you think you need to know? And of course we would be checking with our network, uh, partners about, uh, you know, what we should, what a person should be looking at.

So then a lot of the early courses were actually almost like independent studies that people would design for themselves. So we would draw courses from different parts of the university that were already…like in economics, or, you know, there was some emphasis on development and a variety of things that we could draw on to put together a package of courses. And then eventually it became much more of a standard, um, you know, academic program where you had actually classes that you expected everybody to take you had a core, core classes and so forth. So that’s sort of the evolution of how we got to where…very, very similar to what we are like now, today.

Transition music:
[Music plays]

patience:
What has CJP done well in the last, going on 26 years now?

Vernon:
It’s hard to say, you know, what it has done well, because it has done a lot of things well, actually, but I would say that one of the most, well things that it’s done, if I can use that kind of a structure in English probably shouldn’t…so I would say one of the things that has done best, let me put it that way. Fortunately, we formed by people who came with some kind of an interdisciplinary understanding — John Paul was in sociology, I was in sociology, but we had very different concentrations in our studies. And Esquivia was a lawyer and Hizkias Assefa in Kenya was a political scientist, so to speak, and, uh, also maybe a lawyer, uh, Stucky was a psychologist. Uh, so, so we had a lot of interdisciplinary focus, many times, uh, mediation programs grew out of the communications departments because of the, you know, that you have communicating as a big thing and resolving conflict.

So, but our program here CJP actually had roots in sociology, psychology, particularly community psychology, and, you know, law and justice –Ricardo Esquivia was a human rights lawyer. He was constantly being threatened to be killed. Hizkias was a political scientist who had worked at, in the Sudan with, uh, some of the peace negotiations there, and that’s how he got involved in a lot of that.

So we…the program was very interdisciplinary and really focused, I would say much more broadly than just mediation, which often ended up focusing on how do you mediate peace accords, right? And what we said was, yes, we want to know how you mediate peace accords, but for the peace accords, we had discovered, or we had learned from our experience in these different places that, for the peace accords to be successful, they really had to be embraced by the population at the grassroots. And so many times peace accords were, uh, you know, high-level agreements and, and, and they never worked themselves down.

And so we always had a very much of, uh, an interest in how do you build a community structure at the grassroots that can support peace efforts, whether they’re regional, whether they…even, whether they’re communitarian at the community level, how do you build a community that takes seriously creating patterns of behavior and creating structures that actually solidify that peace, those peace interests, and agreements by sort of grounding them on local structures and what we would call intensive interaction, where you have, you know, lots of, if you’re talking about social capital, you have bonding capital. That’s what actually, when you bond, looking at bonding that’s community, that’s community building, right, so…

patience:
What was this bottom up thought that you were introducing, a new concept? Did it feel like it was a really…something different that was being brought in or?

Vernon:
In the peacebuilding or conflict transformation field? Yes, it was to some degree, uh, somewhat novel. Of course, I came out of a development background where you had lots of emphasis on community or grassroots-based uh, development, increasing economic wellbeing, social wellbeing, and communities. So, which, and it was during a time where you went through that phase, in that, in that discipline where there was a lot of emphasis on, on community building and local level right. Today, some of them we’re sort of bringing back, in some places, around –looking at how do you actually strengthen the local level to be able to actually make the upper, the, those tiers above it work well, right?

patience:
And the interdisciplinary aspect of it probably made that so much stronger, I would imagine…

Vernon:
Yes. We were very much aware of what each of those different pieces of experience that we represented in life, how each of those things played out and interfaced with each other in every community, I mean, you know, so people have, sort of, psychological needs, they have social needs, they have economic needs, but all of those things are related, right. So, so if you’re going to actually build strong communities, you have to bring those things together. So it was very much…had a very different feel than a lot of programs did at that, at that point.

patience:
It distinguished CJP?

Vernon:
Yes, right. Yes, very much so!

patience:
What do you think CJP could have done better in the last 26 years?

Vernon:
[Chuckles] Yes. Well, uh, again, probably there are a lot of things that probably could have done better as well, right. So I won’t go into all of those [both laugh].

patience:
Yeah. But they could be the main ones. I mean, part of growth is being able to reflect and actually seeing, “okay, I could have done that…we could have done that differently and maybe we will try and do that.” Does anything come to mind?

Vernon:
Uh, there’d be several things, two things particularly, uh, that come immediately to mind. One is that, um, we could have paid a lot more attention to what I would call the arts side of community life. And let me just illustrate that by, uh, a little short story of my experience in Puerto Cabezas in Nicaragua is on the North East point of Nicaragua on the Caribbean side. Uh, there was very, very rural communities and they got together in the evening and they had a fire, even though it was hot, they had a fire to…just for the social reasons, but also it kept bugs and stuff away. They would sit around the fire, and most of these people were illiterate, right. Uh, adults who couldn’t read or write, but they sat around the fire and they told stories.

One of the things they did, one time when I was there, uh, somebody would get up and start reciting a poem by memory, right. Because you memorize a lot, if you don’t read, you gotta memorize everything. So, so then somebody would say, “Oh, well, you know, I can do it better,” right, “I can recite this poem better.” And so they had all kinds of, you know, all the things that you would, all the trappings for reciting a poem with enthusiasm and grace.

And so they spent the evening reciting poetry, and because I studied Spanish here in as a college student, I had read a lot of this poetry as part of my upper level Spanish courses and literature and so forth. I had read this stuff that they were now…I was out here in the really, the far regions of Nicaragua with no electricity, you know, out there, and these people are reciting the stuff that I read in the classrooms at EMC, and they’re reciting it by memory. And, and I watched that and how that, sort of, people came together. It was a community event, right, and so we could have spent more time looking at that particular piece of human experience and how you could actually use it to build peace, right? And so eventually we did get…we paid some attention to that, but we could have done a lot better on that, right?

patience:
How do you think it could have been used to build peace? I imagine it has to go with what you said earlier, bonding?

Vernon:
Very much so. And these poems and stories were often illustrating, either hard, hard times that people had gone through or communities had gone through, uh, those kinds of things. And so that you begin, you begin to bring the world into your small communities and so that you begin to think broader or beyond yourselves.

And so, so a lot of that type of thing can happen with that. And the other thing that happens is that there’s marvelous ways for people to begin to rise up in terms of assuming leadership roles, you know, so if you’re a good poetry reciter and so forth, you’ll get called on to do other things. And, and, um, so it’s, it’s a great way for new leaders to sort of break into the leadership structures and the more diversified the leaders, different leaders you have in a community, the more resources you’re going to have to actually address what are the community needs and peace would be one of those, right?

patience:
Yeah, yeah. Do think CJP is doing better with the arts, now?

Vernon:
Uh, I would have to be around a bit more than what I’ve been the last year, but, I think we’re, we’re, we’re more serious about talking about it. For example, a lot of the stuff that we’re doing with trauma and resilience, the arts can play a really significant role there. And if you’re working with, um, if you’re working with community building around difficult things that your communities or groups within your communities have experienced, the arts are very important as, as ways to break down differences or ways to, you know, street theater, that kind of thing that you use to, to address some of the issues that just are hard to talk about otherwise.

So a lot of, uh, you know, and Babu Ayindo for example, from Kenya, uh, did all, I think he did his PhD actually around sort of using the arts in, um, in peacebuilding, particularly theater, right. He was particularly theater. He was interested in.

Transition music:
[Music plays]

patience:
Um, you just mentioned that you’d have to be around more than a year that you’ve been back, which says you’ve been back. So what’s your role currently, at CJP? You came out of retirement…

Vernon:
Yes. I came out of retirement. Uh, I had done a lot of different things, in CJP as like, as it progressed from those early days and so on, was director for awhile, uh, and then retired. And now I’m back, uh, as a part-time academic director to look at the curriculum and to work with professors, primarily, to work with professors, to be supportive at these times that are very difficult times because of, of, uh, having to redo the way we deliver our curriculum, right. Uh, by online because of the COVID pandemic and so forth, and probably we will never go back to totally like we were before. Uh, we will have gained some new experience and new things and, uh, so…

patience:
…the world has changed!

Vernon:
The world has changed and so we need to change too, but, uh, and we’re doing that. And that’s one of the really exciting things about being back, even though it’s just part-time, uh, one of the really exciting things is to look at how CJP is, is in the process of repositioning itself, in some ways, actually reinventing itself and that’s going to take a couple of years because we’re going to have a much more of a heavy focus on United States or North America. That doesn’t mean we will forget about what’s happening in the rest of the world, but we will actually begin to do at home, what we tried to preach needs to happen in other parts of the world.

And that’s often what our colleagues would tell us when we were working with people in different parts of the world, they’d say, “well, you know, it’s great to have you here and we love you…” and all these things, right, “…but you know, if you really wanted to make a difference, you’d go back and you’d change the way your government relates to the rest of the world,” or “…you would do this,” right? And it’s not all that easy to change the way your government relates to the rest of the world, particularly if you’re a small place like we are, but you can, you can do something, right?

patience:
You can try.

Vernon:
You can try! And so, so that’s, that’s where we are now. And that’s, that’s the exciting part about being at CJP right now.

patience:
Wonderful. Um, how do you feel…a while back, you and I had had a conversation about, uh, especially right now, the United States is dealing a lot with, uh, racial representation and you being asked to return and you were trying to see how you fit into this whole picture. Have you given more thought into that, that you can share?

Vernon:
Well, yeah, it’s, it’s hard to know, you know, when, when you’re a person who’s retired, you’ve, you’ve had your career, um, and what you need are our young people or younger people, or people at least who are able to think outside of the box when you’re repositioning yourself, uh, you just have to have people who are willing to think outside the box, because it’s going to be a time when not everything is clear-cut. Uh, so when I was asked about coming back to fill in this role, one of the exciting things was to be able to say, okay, look, I’m going to be here when we’re trying to think outside of the box.

And I always enjoy that, but you know, I’m one of the founders, so the tendency is when you’re, you know, you get to be my age, to retirement age, the tendency is to look back at all of those things that happened, and to, to see the good things about them, a lot less tendency to look to the future of what things might be like, because that’s all uncertainty, right. And when you’re, when you’re at retirement age, you like certainty, you don’t want uncertainty.

So I said, “you know, I’m the wrong person –why would I come?” And so whenever you try to talk about some new idea, I’m going to remember, “Oh, we tried something like that 15 years ago and it didn’t work,” right. So, “so it’s probably not going to work now;” what we have to realize is that 15 years ago it didn’t work, but maybe that was because it was 15 years ahead of its time and now is the time, why not try it? So that’s the exciting thing for me, but, you know, am I the right person for that? I think it is still a legitimate question. You know, maybe you could have done worse right, in getting someone, but, you know, really I do what I can and I try to encourage new ideas that I see out there that people are thinking, I try to encourage them.

And I try not to connect those things to things that we did in the past, because that’s just, that’s just like putting a little bit of a break on it, right. If you say, “Oh yeah, that’s something we tried before,” right, um, and so then the immediate question is “what, if you tried it before, why isn’t it here now?” Right? “Why are we thinking about something similar now?” And so, so I prefer at times to just keep my mouth shut about that kind of thing and encourage people to go ahead and develop the new idea that they have, because it will probably look different until it’s actually implemented.

patience:
You mentioned something about influencing government and how a lot of former students, maybe current students and alums used to say, “maybe begin at home,” which basically goes back to the biblical analogy of removing the log out of your eye before removing the speck out of the other person. But it reminded me of the story that you shared with me a while back about being in an Egyptian airport, and I think it was right after the election of Barack Obama and everyone was so hopeful because of the respect that the United States was going to give everybody else, and…well, 12 years later, what’s your reflection on what happened that night and where we are today?

Vernon:
[Chuckles] Uh, my yes, that night in uh Egypt, in Cairo was quite a night, uh, because everybody, it actually Obama had not yet taken office. It was between the election, and we know though that a lot of things can happen between the election and the time that the new administration takes office [both laugh].

patience:
We particularly know that now! [laughter continues]

Vernon:
Yes, it’s one thing we learned that a lot of things can happen. Uh, so there was still a lot of enthusiasm about what Obama would represent, and as you pointed out, uh, there was a great deal of, of, uh, excitement about the fact that, you know, I met Egyptians who said, “he’s going to respect us,” I met some Chinese in the airport and they said, “you know what, the great thing about Obama is that he’s going to respect us finally.” And, you know, and, and I met some people from other parts of Africa and that was their thing, you know, “Obama’s going to respect us.”

So respect was the huge thing that people thought Obama was bringing. And, uh, so I think one of the things we can do as a government is basically deal with the rest of the world with much more respect and recognition that everything is basically a two-way street, and so, so that’s one of the things that I think we can do, and we can, we can actually begin to structure our communities, uh, around the issues of respect.

So a lot of the work that we’re clearly seeing that we have to do now, there were people who knew this for many, many, many years, right? You just look at the history of the civil rights movement for all of the people who have written about, um, you know, freedom for oppressed groups in the United States. Uh, we knew that, but what we’re seeing in a new way is the significance of respect across these differences that we have. And, and I’m hopeful that we’re going to make some progress on that. Obviously, uh, these things tend not to be developed and be in their perfect form, society is constantly evolving and we’re trying to make things better as we go along, but, but I think one of the big things that we can do now is begin at home with our neighbors, with…across town, wherever we are, we can begin to make the basis for interaction, respect, uh, across, across those differences.

patience:
Yeah. Which, which respect, I mean, comes from honoring people’s dignity and recognizing that…

Vernon:
…dignity, very much so! Dignity is a big issue and dignity violations are, are huge, if you just look at the things that are going on around us, dignity violations are huge. And, and we have to just be much more mindful of and, honoring people’s dignities, including our own, right?

patience:
Mm-hm, yeah! What do you think about that? Uh, respect and dignity and what happened two weeks ago now on January 6th here in the United States with the storming of the Capitol, what are your thoughts about that?

Vernon:
Well, it reminded me of a lot of the places that I had lived before where they’ve experienced coups, right? I remember being in Lesotho when a coup was taking place in Southern Africa, um, at night lying down, um, on the floor so that the bullets wouldn’t hit us and so forth. And so when I look at what happened in the Capitol, I’m seeing, you know, the same feelings that I had in Lesotho when, when that coup was in, in process, uh, the feelings that came back when I saw what was happening in the Capitol, I said, “wow, we’re into some really deep stuff here that, um, is going to take us in directions we don’t want to go, we shouldn’t go.” Uh, because what it does is just ramps up, uh, the, the “othering” of sectors of our population, right? This “othering” taking place and the political campaigns and so forth were built around “othering.”

So, uh, hopefully the…it’s a wake up call for us, I’m not sure if it is, but, um, maybe down the road, even, maybe, you know, a year or two down the road, we’ll look back at it and we will have some different learnings coming from there. So hopefully we don’t let that totally disappear from our consciousness, because there is something to be learned there about what honoring people’s dignity can do in terms of opening up possibilities to work together in ways that we weren’t even thinking about probably before.

patience:
Mm-hm, mm-hm! Do you have any thoughts about how…as CJP looks more to working or reinventing itself, like you said, um, to working more internally in the United States, does the curriculum change rather drastically or not? Does it just get tweaked from what was happening before? Maybe it does. The world is the same irrespective of where people live, but what are your thoughts on that?

Vernon:
Uh, I think it will change some, I think the curriculum will change some, there are always, some things that are going to remain constant –they may be expressed differently, so for example, at CJP, I think you would say is committed to nonviolence as the basis for, uh, building on respect for dignity and that kind of thing. Uh, so nonviolence is very important, uh, but it might look differently, it might look different as we try to look at, what does it mean to approach the issues we’re currently facing through a nonviolent lens, right?

And so, so how we talk about how we embody, how we live nonviolence will probably look different from what it was in the early days of CJP and the curriculum will probably have to change to be more current. Um, I think we’re, we’re giving much more importance to the whole arena of trauma at the, what I would call at the, the lay level, right. We’ve always had a lot of emphasis on professional therapists and so forth, um, but there is also a really significant part of just basic…sort of, if you’re looking at health, for example, there’s basic health practices that we do, like brushing our teeth and so forth, you know, that, that all of that is important.

And that’s…lay people can do that, you don’t need to be a specialist to figure out some of these public health practices that are helpful for us. And we’re, we’re getting to the point, I think in the area of trauma and resilience, where it is going to become much more common, many more of those things will be common understandings that we take into account in our day-to-day lives. And we won’t see some of that, uh, those practices for psychological wellbeing, we won’t see those so much as professional things that you have to do. We’ll still want our professionals in, you know, therapy, therapeutic fields of psychology and psychiatry, and so forth –counselors. We still want that, but there is, there is, there will be lay practices that we would just do as, as a matter of fact, as that’s the way you live, that’s what you do.

patience:
Right. Tools that people live with every time and they know how to self-regulate and all that.

Vernon:
Yes. And so that, I think that we’re going to see more of that, and hopefully in those areas that I think are really, really significant in terms of enhancing dignity.

Transition music:
[Music plays]

patience:
What do you hope for CJP going forward? What would you wish for CJP to be in 25 years from now?

Vernon:
So, so if I could go back 25 years when we were sitting around what would we be looking at, huh?

patience:
What do you hope for, from now?

Vernon:
Yeah, from now, where would we want to be? Uh, clearly I think just what we were talking about is one of the things that I think we will want to make sure that we’re doing at CJP and that is introducing simple lifestyle, let’s say lifestyle, philosophy of living. So for example, let’s just take some of the things that CJP is working with. Let’s let’s see, CJP is working with trauma and resilience. I’ve also already mentioned something about that, how that becomes much more our daily discourse that’s pieces of that. Uh, we we’re talking about restorative justice is one of the things we have here.

So how do we deal with wrongdoing in ways that are redemptive or life-giving to the individual rather than punishment, which could be harmful to the person, how do we, how do we deal with wrongdoing in the right ways, right? So, and restorative justice provides some structure for that, and it’s constantly evolving. Uh, so that, so hopefully CJP is able to bring this more integrated, these disciplines that we’ve seen popping up within our curriculum, that we’re doing a lot more with somatic stuff around trauma, around health and so forth.

patience:
Did you say “somatic”?

Vernon:
Somatic yeah, with the body and energy and so forth, right. That those become important considerations in our daily living. Uh, and so, uh, hopefully CJP can be sort of a reservoir of this melting pot of ideas and practices that when you put it together, it creates wholeness, a sense of wholeness and of wellbeing at the community, as well as at the individual level or at the family level. Um, and I I’d like us to sort of be that light, um, in the future in 25 years from now, hopefully we will be doing that.

patience:
Yeah. I’m trying to look here, there was something that I read, because when you said about the individual and, uh, the societal level, a paper you had written on “the mundane musings of…” [chuckles] uh, let’s see, “zipping around, up and down while traveling to and fro,” and you had talked about collective trauma and individual wounds, and it sounds like that’s what you are, moving toward.

Vernon:
Yeah, right, right. Yes. Yes. Clearly, uh, I mean the title of that paper is obviously much more impressive than the paper itself. So [both laugh]…

patience:
Let me read it fully. The full title is: “Mundane musings of a muddled mind: zipping around, up and down while traveling to and fro.”

Vernon:
Yes, okay. So that’s a, that’s a, that is a piece, I guess you could say. So the understanding of collective trauma I think, is, is something that would really be helpful for us if we actually began to think about what does that look like? How have we experienced it? What have groups in our society done, for example? So you just, I mean, we don’t need to look far. I mean, we’re constantly, uh, and, and, you know, right now as we record this, it’s in February. And so we’re looking at, uh, black history month. If you look at the, at the African-American population in the United States, that’s, it’s not the only population that has experienced this, but when you just look at the collective trauma that was experienced by a population, right. Um, and, and that doesn’t mean that white populations, don’t also experience collective trauma. We just have to pay more attention to collective trauma and how that, how that shapes the way we interact with each other as individuals.

And, uh, so, so hopefully CJP can help us in 25 years from now be at a very different place in terms of understanding, you know, so you can, uh, what our behavior as a, as a nation or as communities or regions within our nation, uh, that, that behavior is actually probably rooted in some collective trauma, not everything, but there’s collective trauma around a lot of things that we, uh, we survive. And how do we recognize that and make it an asset? Because we know that trauma can be an asset to us, we learn something from it. Um, how can we make that an asset as opposed to something that we can’t name, and it actually affects us in ways that we’re not aware of?

So, so hopefully some of our work at CJP will actually help us look at collective trauma, community building, and, you know, and I’m familiar with the program in Mexico that the Jesuits for Peace are carrying up and there would be some here in the United States as well, but I happen to know that one –and they are looking precisely at how do we reconstruct the social fabric in regions of the country, in Mexico, that were abandoned by the drug Lords who had held these regions under their iron fist for 40 or 50 years.

And now because of the changing, uh, configuration of the drug trade in Mexico, uh, those areas were abandoned by the drug Lords and people have lost their ability to have a civil society that’s functional. And so they’re trying to reconstruct the social fabric by looking at some of the things that we’re actually talking about. And then we’re examining at programs like CJP, we’re not the only ones who are doing that, but programs like CJP are looking at some of the, so how do you rebuild communities? How do you reconstruct the social fabric? Well, obviously restorative justice is one very important way. Conflict transformation, another one, uh, you know, trauma and resilience are others. All of those things can contribute and be integrated in ways to reconstruct the social fabric. And it’s amazing what’s happening in Mexico.

patience:
Mm. How is that being done in Mexico? What are some things that you can share that they’re doing?

Vernon:
Well, for example, um, one of the things that they wanted to focus on in these communities, when they talked to the communities, “what do you need?” Well, one of the things they wanted to do was to solidify their economic base. So they said, okay, so then let’s try to improve the economic structure. Well, one of the things that they wanted to do to improve their economic capacity was to actually, eh, um, do collective or form cooperatives and, so that they could actually, um, get some economies of scale and that, all the things that you create by, uh, that you get creating cooperatives.

So, so they did some of those things, and then, but they said, you know, these things didn’t work, they didn’t work until we actually discovered that the reason they weren’t working is that people didn’t trust each other because of all the divisions. And so how are you going to form a cooperative if people don’t trust each other, right? And so, so they said, we, we did, then what we thought we would do after we had the economics established, we would then begin to deal with some of the trauma that they experienced under the drug Lords…

patience:
…it’s the other way around…

Vernon:
…and they said, no, we couldn’t get anything done until we actually took time and sat in circles, and other kinds of structures, ways of organizing ourselves to just to begin, to hear how people had been harmed and the harms they were carrying, the wounds and scars they were carrying. And so that you actually began to deal with some of the trauma that was collective, right. It was collective. So that if you’re going to try to have any kind of collective collaboration, uh, you have to be able to…

patience:
…you have to have some truth-telling.

Vernon:
Yes, telling-truth telling, and you have to have become, you have to be able to confide and and, you know, feel that you can trust each other. So, so, yeah, so that’s an example, some examples of what I think can actually happen.

patience:
Right. Right. Do you have anything else you would like to add that we didn’t talk about?

Vernon:
Uh, we’ve touched on a lot of things. Um, but, um, one of the things that I think I, I want to come back and touch and highlight what I already mentioned, that is the, the role of the arts and the aesthetics and aesthetics, if you want to talk about that, in the very nitty-gritty of reconstructing the social fabric, we have to have those things of the soul, right, and I think of those often as things of the soul –poetry and music and all of those things, uh, how do we actually live those in the freeing ways that we live with, these things, uh, poetry has its own life and it does…creates energy for us and so forth. And in itself is beautiful and important; it should be appreciated as poetry. We don’t want to instrumentalize it, right.

But how to do those things that feed the soul, feed the inner being to actually help us be in a better position to interact with our friends and neighbors and people in the next village, uh, to actually create structures that are equally liberating and energizing as, as the, what we experienced when we just sort of absorb poetry or song or music, or we hear these things or drama dramatic presentation. So again, appreciating them for what they are and what they help us do without instrumentalizing them, because if we instrumentalize them, we lose what gives them that particular…

patience:
…potency.

Vernon:
Potency, yes. Yeah. So, anyway, so I’ll just highlight that again, and hopefully as we re-configure ourselves at CJP, we’ll put a good bit of that in the mix, right?

patience:
Yeah, yeah. May it be so! [both laugh]

Vernon:
Yes!

patience:
Indeed. Yeah.

Vernon:
So thank you, uh, patience, it’s been wonderful to chat with you!

patience:
You as well, thank you for making the time, I appreciate it a lot!

Vernon:
Could we schedule a recording session every two weeks or something like that, so we can get together and, uh, and, and just visit?

patience:
Absolutely. We don’t even have to record, but I would love to just visit with you and just chit-chat, yeah, I would love that. [both laugh]

Vernon:
Okay!

patience:
That would be great, yeah.

Vernon:
Thank you!

patience:
Thank you so much, Vernon, and have a good uh, afternoon right? Evening.

Vernon:
Yeah, evening. Thank you. Same to you.

patience:
All right, bye-bye!

Vernon:
Bye!

Outro Music:
[Outro music plays and fades into background]

patience:
All the music you hear on this podcast has been composed by the one and only, Luke Mullet, our audio mixing engineer extraordinary, is Stephen Angello. And, I am the podcast executive producer, audio recording engineer, editor and host patience kamau. As you are able, please remember to subscribe,, rate and review this podcast so that other peacebuilders may find it. We’ll be back with a new episode in two weeks. Thanks so much for listening and join us again, next time.

Outro Music:
[Music resumes normal volume and plays till end]